Tricky Tricks [A Witch Pvp Challenge Guide]

Discussion in 'Witch' started by SuperStringy, Nov 9, 2015.

  1. SuperStringy Curiosity-dominated

    To celebrate the coming of Rank Arena to DFO, and to motivate/improve our Witches in Pvp, this thread compiles gimmicks, resources, and a brief history of KDnF witches, as no one seems to have done before. Feel free to ask any questions, because a Witch can do much more than MM in pvp!

    I will start with a personal nostalgia, the earliest pvp witch video, recorded by 아키렌* (Akiren*) the best witch that has won KDnF OGN tournament single and team. It was this video which got me into playing witch and pvp~

    After watching, got excited? More exciting matches coming your way. Witch is known for her mobility and versatility potential. There's a lot of things to learn from this, and I will talk more about them later. I believe that everything we're doing right now in pvp was pioneered if not invented by Akiren. A lot of things have changed since the Lv.60 Cap; we no longer swap gear for hp gain, and we cannot see the pvp points system now. I still miss that lv35 Legacy set: suede of Culy, okay... spent so much gold on gathering these pieces..

    [1] Gimmicks, I challenge you
    [2] Biography of Witches
    [3] Losing in Pvp? Motivation from past Witches

    [1] A Checklist of Gimmicks
    Achieve the following gimmicks for reward:
    M. Slayer
    [√] #1. Backstep to avoid ashe fork *depends on the type of weapon*
    [ ] #2. Shururu at the start of match against Neutral Force Wave for buffing/summon (recom. for low casting Mages like BM/Summoners)

    Subclass: Blade Master
    [√] #3. Try using >>x (fall off and dropping the broomstick)...
    [ ] #4. Pressed uppercut...
    [ ? ]#5. Disenchant (depends on casting speed)...
    [ ] #6. Summon Hodor...
    to avoid Draw Sword!
    [ ] #7. Magic Missle in diagonal direction to avoid Raging Dragon Slash
    [ ] #8. Utilize Dusted Dragon Fang for x-axis attacks, such as Charge Crash.

    Subclass: Soul Bender
    [ ] #9. Dash fly to avoid Phantasmal Slayer, also try >>x to fall down
    [ ] #10. Use Shururu to disrupt Ghost Step casting.

    Subclass: Berserker
    [ ] #11. In the case that you just started the combo mid-air and he used Raging Fury to counter, use broomstick bounce SA
    [ ] #12. Uppercut as the Berserker jumps for Outrage Break.
    [ ] #13. Use either Broomstick spin or manteau exactly at the first launching hit of the Outrage Break and successfully escapes the real dmg dealer afterwards.
    Candy Tips: DE all buffs, especially when he's at low hp (<15%)

    Subclass: Asura
    [ ] #14. Use Magic Missle/EMM during Indomitable Spirit to counter Wave Radiation.

    Subclass: Demon Slayer
    [ ] #15. Summon Hodor between you and the Demonbane before she is about to use the Sword Demon Strike
    [ ] #16. Use gravitas to attack during her middle of leap.

    Appetitzer Tips: ①Lava/Shururu to wipe all Doppelgangers, depends on whether you want to zone/chase
    ②DE all buffs, or rather look for openings when they cast the few essential buffs that they have.

    Subclass: Striker
    [ ] #17. Collider until SA wears off
    [ ] #18. Or even better... Manteau a Striker during SA casting.
    Subclass: F.Nen
    [ ] #19. Furnace the dmg over Nen Guard magic defense
    Subclass: Grappler
    [ ] #20. Manteau-grab the grappler against his/her QR!

    [ ] #21. Stack 5+ buffs to have Mana Shield still on after being disenchanted
    [ ] #22. Cast Ancient Library to other Magic users during Team match.
    Plat Principal Tips: Use DE appropriately. The worst is to debuff every time you can and mistake to be a summoner hehe.

    Subclass: Elementalist
    [ ] #23. Utilize Shururu to taunt Frosty and Jack o'Lantern!
    [ ] #24. Use Indomitable spirit to save you from Fire Pillar
    [ ] #25. Merry-go-around the Void.
    [ ] #26. Gravitas inside Black Hole??!

    Subclass: Battle Mage
    [ ] #27. Palm-Blast Hodor closer to the BMage and then EMM
    Dessert Tips: Broomspin vs. Full Swing

    Subclass: Summoner
    [ ] #28. Dash right out of Sacrifice!
    [ ] #29. Collider the Summoner and her summons
    [ ] #30. Freeze the summon with Snow (formerly Chilling) Dust
    [ ] #31. Dust kill Big Sis Louise! (and avoid the meteor afterwards)
    Fromage Tips: Keep track of which Summons like you! (Opponent-specific)

    Subclass: Witch [The best class to pvp against]
    [ ] #32. Collider (and everything else) to each other! Cast Lolipop in PvP for the cuteness, or even during Indom.
    Fortune Cookies: Note that Manteau, Broomstick Spin, and all casting skills including our machines during Indomitable Spirit have SA property,
    but the duration of SA is limited within the duration of the Cast Time, which is independent of casting speed. Compare Skill Tooltip in Arena.

    Subclass: Exorcist
    [ ] #33. Taunt the tortoise with Shururu/Hodor, Acidify the White Tiger monuments
    Subclass: Avenger
    [ ] #34. Manteau the Spin, Spin the Thorn, Collider the Demon
    Subclass: Necromancer
    [ ] #35. Use MM with Indom. to cancel Guillotine

    9:00 Elim 1st round 33:30 2nd round 43:30 1v1 The battle mage was so good against Nicholas. Her teammmates did a clean job too.
    Subclass: Rogue
    [ ] #36. Collider her out of Molting; assuming you have gotten her molting, this is only possible when she has that first molting CD down. By the way, Molting may be canceled by doing quick air X's and swatter.

    Subclass: F.Spitfire
    Disenchant Leap is not necessary; a higher leap can be an advantage for low move spd or to set up AoE/buff on ground.
    Same as a witch can do a limited number of air manuevers, female Spitfire can throw two grenades and two bullets at most using cannon, in addition to adjusting position in air. The cannon shots, however, have a cheesecake-like range, or rather an invisible slanted tetrahedron shot down from air...
    Sometimes grenades can be avoided just by a small walking-over or backstep.
    16 Freezing/Blazing Bullets and 3 Grenades per kind, per charge. is a cool place.

    Mechanic: Bring sweet death to all robots along the way and in the air. Freeze the Wall-E. DE all buffs.

    [ ] #37. Able to start or continue a combo during confusion caused by Broomstick Spin.
    You see... It's all about creativity. Any PVE gimmicks could translate to PVP.
    Disclaimer: Some gimmicks may not work any all.
    Fun hypothesis: Gravitas' effective range presents itself a horizontal ellipse, with major axis >>minor axis, therefore it's more effective when the enemy is moving on the parabolic path between your arbitrary x-axis and the farthest point from you on the minor axis.
    Let's get on topic about the Akiren video. A few things to note:
    Broomstick hitbox - affects the melee attack range such as uppercut, dragon fang, and X. I think Koonail and the Teddy Bear Broom (implemented in FA and soon in another ranked pvp update) have the most hitbox by their shape. During OGN witch vs. ele, he, Akiren, purposefully switched a lv60. purple broom Peniculus like the Titanic Flier (long with a swaying broom hair) to Koonail, even though dmg is lower. I don't know about hitbox mechanism, but we can try them out.
    Shururu + Mega drill - In the video, he used shururu to zone and drill. But the self-detonated Shururu may also serve as a delay from falling in case of having not enough casting spd, longer setup delay (e.g. Drill - forms a nice combo especially with rain water dmg debuff, ok still not a dmg tier..), etc. Detonating Shururu does, however, sacrificing the magic def. debuff.
    Mega drill - out of corner - Mega Drill isn't an effective machine in most cases, except maybe against summoner, striker, etc. He was cornered and used drill to threaten the opponent and, effectively got out of Male Spit cornering. Leap can work too, but Drill looks awesome and threatening!
    16:51-54 Combo orientation - Obviously, he wanted to corner the launcher. But this reminds me of how important is the each step of your combo, i.e., between each uppercut. You want to do the most damage before the dmg cap, and even a combo reset by not letting player to escape. Depending on your build, dust + rain or gravitas may be the dmg dealer. If gravitas were the case, more dust attacks would result in less opportunity to set everything else up.
    Note that we still have a small window to set up lava, shururu, collider, or anything else that serves a purpose, after Gravitas. Sleeper success gravitas launches much higher.
    Broomstick spin confusion - out of all classes in dfo, witch should be the most adept at handling this situation!!
    BTW Lava only attacks opponents very close to the ground and OTG. While you keep him in the air, never set up lava first so that by the time your opponent falls from a long scrubbing Lava has just ended, rendering it a waste of skill.
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015
  2. SuperStringy Curiosity-dominated

    [2] Biography of PvP Witches
    Different playstyles, different builds, different key inputs. I will list a timeline of witches appearing in media. See which one(s) you like.

    *Note to selecting video on jiyou, you should see 3 tabs just above all videos; tab 1 is the most recent, tab 2 is most viewed, tab 3 is most rated. Whenever you change a page, you will need to hover over the tab that you're looking into again, or it will reset to default tab 1.

    1. 김현도 f.grappler Active
    Most recently, this second known f.grappler in kdnf started to play on witch alt.
    2. 임건형임건형 전1설 Active
    Akiren's informal apprentice that appeared at 2015 OGN Winter. You can see akiren as the necro right beside this player during elim match, yes akiren quit to play necro as good as his witch. Not mature yet, playing more like tsudonji. Good at combo extension (creativity) and using palm blast bounce repeatedly.
    3. 아키렌* Akiren* Possible comeback
    Aggressive yet relaxed, most of the time he plays hecklessly because he is strategic. He is also lucky to play witch at a time when furnace had a good explosion range and swatter could spawn tau beasts. Made a lot of miracles, as witch should do. Envy of his scary but free-flowing movement spd during every OGN tournament match.
    4. "Tsudonji"
    Never entered OGN, but he did go on public in the "South Korea Four King Challenge Tournament," one of which was Akiren. Compared to Akiren, Tsudonji would represent the classical school of witch play. Also plays aggressively (meaning tagging the opponent at every second), good at approach such as furnace cancel.
    5. Mr. Chou/Qiu Dongsheng Active仇冬 F1 2014, S3 Profession Tourny
    Plays in a sly fasion. Lava/Rain/Furnace rotation with MM and Hodor assist. Waits for impatience and then opening.
    His buffs include EB, and MF for CD, which he needs to cast at the beginning of match and every other 20 secs afterwards. He can be precise about the timing of each AoE CD. Hodor is there for threat (in other words, he hasn't gotten any luck with hodor). Frequently in his record, the opponent dies from time-outs. It's a mistake to get loose oneself at the countdown thinking that the witch would die. Don't expect anything lucky when you break even with him. He extends damage from OTG scrubbing and look for stand-up protection (occurs at the 2nd dmg cap after the enemy has been launched from the 1st) to attack again. His aggressive opponents need to protect themselves right after they have just done a full dmg combo on him...
    Once again, attitude is the key.
    China team representative. Following his recent performance at F1 2015, he's a well-rounded witch. Pretty good at zoning and pressure, and looking for openings. A cunning witch...

    There were also kanji witches that weren't famous enough to call out their ign. One wore a penguin suit/red scarf. Another one had a white oriental lady style outfit. They've all mastered combos and basic approaches, but as you see, getting to akiren level requires more than mastery and proficiency.

    Reserved for Contents [2] and [3].
    Preview: For a witch, movement speed>attack spd>casting spd.
    To be continued. Format, Content, Question suggestions are welcome!
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
  3. This is a good start, we need more Witch resources. Way too underrepresented in ranked atm.
  4. James ░░░░░░░░░░░░░░

    I guess it would be fitting to ask here since this is a PvP thread. Witch general thread is...Well, the Witch general thread. Can't expect much.

    What avatar options do you use?
  5. SuperStringy Curiosity-dominated

    Standard ava menu: Castingx2 Attackx2 Befriend Plutox1 Movementx1 Max hpx1 Evasionx1
    Befriend Pluto benefits across all essential skills in pvp.
    Did you have any doubt on other ava options?
  6. James ░░░░░░░░░░░░░░

    Thanks for the info. I didn't doubt, I just wanted to make sure I made no mistakes.

    Concerning general gameplay, what's the best way to get a clean hit confirm on people? My method tends to be to Palm Blast and Sky Assault people until it hits. It works a bit considering they're fast and mobile, but it doesn't feel exactly reliable. It isn't so bad if you have large AoEs down as well as Panzer Hodor for huge pressure, but I was wondering what I could be missing. I throw out a Dragon Fang occasionally for the large x-axis range too, but it barely ever works, haha. It's nice when it does, though.
  7. SuperStringy Curiosity-dominated

    You're asking how to approach people. There are many more ways than sky assault. Palm Blast is a surprise when people are just tagging you while figuring out how to approach you. When people are in air and without any SA, you can just approach to scrub. Manteau is another one, but there's a delay associated with the manteau move and your enemy can target that (e.g. spitfire bullets, windmill).
    Sky assault is enough though, if you pressure them, reserve your Sky assault, until you find the one window at that moment during the match. If you uppercut too much in the same way then your opponent may gain familiarity from your sky assault pattern.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
  8. SuperStringy Curiosity-dominated

    You can also press C and move up/down or diagonally while already in air and give'em X's or swatter (larger hit box - safer) to start a combo. You see Akiren doing this recklessly too many times, especially during vs. bm match.
    Sky assault is often countered by SA move such as priest's GWL which can instead make u aerial. Where u sky assault is important, concerning the grasp of y-axis; a bit too into the priest's range>>staying a bit longer near him before you return from skewed uppercut, so you want to just touch on him (probably watching top bm videos would help). There's also very fast attack like gunner's cannon shot that looks for exact timing when u uppercut him, exerting low hit recovery. Hope this helps!
    Last edited: May 18, 2016
  9. I recently switched my top avatar from befriend Pluto to death dust. The added hitstun is pretty nice. Hard to say if it is better overall, but I like it.
  10. SuperStringy Curiosity-dominated

    Last edited: Feb 27, 2016
  11. SuperStringy Curiosity-dominated

    Akiren was so good at fighting summoners and mechanics, and battlemages.
    Even our aerial attacks have different styles/variations, purely arising from the restriction that witches can have at most 4 broom-strokes in air. I miss seeing them rather than the CXX nowadays.
    (you can get some idea in akiren's latest and last video here fighting the crusader).
    Whenever you want to watch some witch action but don't know where exactly the witch is in the video, you slide along the thumbnail images until you see yellow and red lava and big grey clouds, especially those with flashy lightnings.
    Best akiren tourny moments are: 1)Single vs Striker in red princess outfit, 2)Elim vs Q_Q Mech team in blue dandy girl outfit, 3)Elim vs Ranger team, 4)Single vs BM, and 5)Single vs Summoner almost all of them~ single vs f.nen too

    Update: Now on the, scroll down the main page just below the Daily Focus and New Event section, you will see 4 rectangular character icons. Move to the second icon, which shows the male fighter, and you get a list of famous igns from each subclass which gets you to their videos. To find the witch section, count downward until the 25th box at the left hand, by which you will see names like BesToFMagic and Trister, two Korean kanji witches albeit no longer active. Trister is the witch I was talking about who wears penguin suit and red scarf.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2016
  12. SuperStringy Curiosity-dominated

  13. PlatinumMad

    Hello, new Witch main here and I have some build related questions. Is regular MM essential? I tried to use it but it wasnt doing me much good, and ive found more use from Lantern bomb. also, how much should I be specing into the machines? I maxed gravitas, but am clueless on the others D:

    On a side note really loving this class in both PVE and PVP, and this thread has been very helpful :D
  14. SuperStringy Curiosity-dominated

    Lol sorry I haven't been on for a while. I hope all these stuff are not too much for new Witches. Just try out at your own pace.
    Regular MM is used by majority for zoning (if Lava/Rain/Shururu is down or preserved). Or canceling skills like Blade master's Raging dragon slash (very effective with good prediction), Battlemage's Meteor Assault, etc. Or using it defensively for the purpose of giving time to cast skills.
    I've never used lantern bomb, so use it as you see fit. I'm not sure about gravitas anymore, but witches are starting to use int buff skills, which can be a drudgery to manipulate. This also means depending on how much sp you're left with, dropping few levels of gravitas for other buff/utility skills is okay.
    I added furnace to lv3~5 to increase its hp enough so that it can sustain the first few hits of lv40-45 skills before I get to cancel my furnace in a combo because, lv1 furnace is too weak, explodes immediately upon dmg, and puts me into danger instead.
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2016
  15. SuperStringy Curiosity-dominated

    I've seen a witch long time ago doing standing dust combos. Not sure if still possible with the recovery/hitstun pvp changes in the coliseum update.
    Dragon fang+>>X+X+... similar to bm's

    On the other hand, #20 on the list: Manteau-grab the grappler against his/her QR! 6:40-6:45
    Here's the same vs. f.nen video. One I already talked about: press direction key to get out of the hit-box area of all close-range skills your opponent could afford, while still attacking or swattering in case of a comeback (yours or his/her).

    The 2nd point is how she (really a he) used manteau as the last resort against QR. See, she just used AM but got a Stuck, unfortunately. After avoiding caught, it seemed to Akiren that the F.nen was holding QR for as long as the duration stipulated, so she returned to quickly manteau the F.nen (first appearing to escape on the same x-axis, next turning around to face the F.nen). If she could be more patient at the moment, she could time the stand-up from QR right and use Cancel Manteau from X attacks. She escaped from a null and haphazard manteau counterattack using a skewed uppercut.

    ( Edit to the 1st point: ) 5:02-5:08
    The vs. striker video from the last post. An extension is to employ SA broomstick spin using anti-gravity assist from your broomstick by Newton's 3rd Law.
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2016
  16. Well, I logged in after a 6 month break and it seems like witch got nerfed super hard? More specifically, it's impossible to swatter or broomstick spin out of a forward-backstep-forward ground dash now. Can anyone else confirm this? I think I'm done playing witch. :(

    More specifically, I mean this move:
  17. SuperStringy Curiosity-dominated

    I just backstep + spin. Is that still possible?

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