Kunoichi Skill Build Assistance

Discussion in 'Thief' started by TheMechanicXYZ, Dec 8, 2014.

  1. TheMechanicXYZ C.R.E.A.M.

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    Ok so Kunoichi is coming in a couple of days in CDNF, and i made a skill build months before, so all Kunoichi players, i need quick feed back on how it looks. CDNF doesn't have free resets, so i must make it perfect.

    http://dnf.duowan.com/s/jnmn/ndz.ht...AAKVfcRFaPXJVINNI_AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAFAFAAAAAF__
    I see through the kunoichi vids that people using the level 20 skill with the clones, but i just don't really see a need for it since the other clones do less damage, but then again it looks like a nice room clearer i guess. I'm thinking of maybe not using the Level 60 EX skill and the level 35 holding skill, but still, i need some help.
     
  2. the multiple shuriken throw looks really strong though, and no double jump?
     
  3. TheMechanicXYZ C.R.E.A.M.

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    Not really a fan of the double jump, and all of the kunoichi skills are good. I literally can't find any skill to drop, and if I must get the multi shuriken, I'll probably drop one ex skill, probably the 60 ex, and the recording skill ? Or maybe the lvl. 35 hold skill. Idk. Then there's kunai which is good as well.
     
  4. Recording skill is broked, I thought, and I just mentioned double jump for utility purposes, like after using molting.
    Cubes are all worth it, far as I can tell, but the shuriken thing is on the wall. I just saw a lot of vids use it, and it looked to be doing a large portion of the damage, but maybe it was just being used for insane hitstun, which is very real possibility


    Edit: Whew boy, the explosive kunai TP increases the damage of the explosion by 150% PER RANK! Yeah, max that
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2014
  5. Save 4 Less Now!

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    From what I've seen, You could probably leave the level 35 Kunai and Log skill at 1. It works like a F. Mage's Phase Shift where you can use it while downed and hitstunned to escape mobs, however, if used offensively you can't use it to escape a sticky situation since the offensive version shares a cooldown with the defensive. You would probably be better off leaving it at 1 and using the SP on more offensive skills.

    EDIT: While the level 20 Shuriken Clones may seem weak, they do all inflict hit stun on a massive aoe. This will allow you to cancel into those other skills that need set up to land.
     
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  6. YanDaMan263 lol @ u

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    The Shuriken skill is actually really awesome when used in the air, as most of them will concentrate on one target that way. Best used after a high launcher (hold the skill button to jump higher than normal after the uppercut).
    Also Drill Kunai is one of her strongest skill so I think TP should be maxed for that. Flamebreath is not that strong so you can leave that at 1, I usually use it during backstep for knockback purposes.

    I like the Kunai+Log skill despite it's high cooldown, it's actually really damn strong and really helps in Tower of Despair, but leaving it at 1 is not a bad choice either.

    Also I like the Kunai throw passive, it only max at 1 level and increases the chance for you to throw 2 chakra weapon instead of 1 by 20%, so it wouldnt hurt to get.

    I'd also put one level of TP passive into the fire dunk move and the lv45 skill to give them the extra properties. IT let the lv45 skill become a pseudo-male striker lightning dance that groups every mob on screen together, and it turns fire dunk into a grab move if used right on top of an enemy.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 11, 2014
  7. Laande Quite Depressed

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    Build is fine just get that flame dunk upgrade since that skill is the current op as fuck skill and when you get the right gear it's just plain broken(chrons are easy epic is hard)
     
  8. I think the cubes are definitely worth maxing over flame breath and whatnot, but what about the awakening passive?
     
  9. Laande Quite Depressed

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    Passive is more damage so it's up to you personally i feel you get more damage from skills.
     
  10. burritoblob w0w

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    Making a build based on watching full gear true ancient or anton vids won't work at all. Kunoichi is definitely a class where builds change a lot after chronicle items. Anyway, here's what I think about everything asked so far. To avoid confusion, I'm going to use the skill name TLs by mms (http://forums.dfocore.com/Thread-kDNF-Kunoichi-Translation-Not-so-much-of-a-guide-edition).

    Base - Kunai Throw
    Very good as a way to instantly recover out of the x attack string and any skill with shadow illusion cancels. For damage, though, it's kind of whatever. This matters more if you x attack a lot, especially against single targets (3+ Set Single Sword Slash Work). Often an SP dump. 1/10(TP pre-req)/dump/M.

    Lv15 - Flame Mouth
    This skill fills a decent attack range for Kunoichi, but the damage on this skill is way too low to consider maxing since you have to manage your resource use a lot. Using this for damage will waste a lot of flame, illusion, and recording charges because it is near mandatory to use the shadow illusion's invincibility to have the skill run its full non-SA active duration. Having this at 1 is decent utility though for the ability to knockdown and OTG combo mobs from standing state with the x attack.

    Lv20 - Illusion Multi Shuriken
    The second strongest skill against single targets (the highest is perfect positioning Toad Oil Fire Bullet or Spiral Great Wheel Kunai w/ Max TP), has good utility in combos, and decent during AoE. Even if your target is small, hitting with just the main character and the 2 50% damage illusions is still really strong and very easy to do. It's only real weakness is that you have to use shadow illusion cancels on this every time to avoid getting interrupted during its long, non-SA active duration.

    Lv20 - Fire Release: Red Flame TP
    It might seem like an obvious max, but you spend 10 TP just to get 11+ fire elemental damage (depends on buff skill level from gear). Very weak considering there are other decent TP skills that are also skipped a lot that would take precedence over this anyway. The defensive boost portion of the TP doesn't matter enough, either. I wouldn't even max it if you have one of the "one button" chronicle sets.

    Lv25 - Flame Tornado TP
    I would only max this for the leveling part. There are skills that are stronger or have very important situational uses to be using TP on this past the leveling phase. The extra tornado size isn't really needed, either.

    Lv35 - Ninja Art: Body Replacement
    Leaving this at 1 is fine, but this is one of those skills where it dealing a decent amount of damage in a short period is really strong for a lot of boss patterns in OV. The alternatives are kinda really bad anyway.

    Lv50 Awk Passive - Soul Explosion Technique
    A decent source of extra AoE damage with a fire resist debuff tacked on which doesn't rely on resources. Hilariously strong during leveling. Also, you don't really have to be next to a target for the full duration. Just walking by for one moment makes mobs take the full Fierce Flame version until the finisher (your clones don't copy this aura, though). Fierce Flame version basically deals 9838% every 5s and lowers fire resist by 12 (Max + Skill Contract = Lv15). Although... you do have to turn this passive off a good amount of times in OV and Anton.

    60 EX - Secret Tool: Flying Swallow Shuriken
    An ok mobbing skill that has invincibiity through most of the active part of the skill (when not shadow illusion cancelled), but the damage it does for how big a cooldown it has is not too exciting. It's also a little hard to get all the shuriken to hit against small and/or mobile targets.

    It's possible to shadow clone cancel this skill at different points (and take full advantage of assassination mark debuff), but it can't be used for recording during the Samsara buff which can be a good or bad thing. Level 1 for invuln only or max for damage during invuln.

    70 EX - Demonic Illusion: Wind Demon Shuriken
    This skill is really bad. The damage isn't even higher than the 60 EX (and the CD is almost twice as much), it's one of the hardest Kunoichi skills to get all the hits on target, the air version does no damage, and it constantly interrupts casting rotations as you have to catch and throw the shuriken similar to Double Gun Hawk. Unlike Ranger skills + Double Gun Hawk, though, Kunoichi charge times are too high to fit a lot of stuff inbetween throws. The hitbox and grouping properties on the shuriken is way worse than that of Double Gun Hawk, too.

    Shadow illusion canceling this skill is also a waste of resources since you still have to catch the giant shuriken on the main character even though the clone summons it first. You probably can't even take full advantage of the really strong assassination mark debuff since the illusion poofs away after only throwing once (compared to 60 EX which does full hits). Also, just like the 60 EX, it cannot be used for recording during Samsara.

    Probably the only reason you even want to think of using it is if you have 9 Set Single Sword Slash Work (Dark Shadow Technique Explosive Tag + 70 EX Set). Actually… it's probably bad even with that 9 set bonus since it interrupts the much stronger x attack + Kunai Throw at that point.

    ---

    Since you get an event reset apparently, I would say go and play with all the skills to find out what you like about the class. The main skills you use during leveling only involve Flame Tornado, x attack, Fiery Blooming Dance, and Toad Oil Fire Bullet anyway.

    After leveling, here's what I would reset to for beginner gear OV (Lv85 w/ Single Imbue + 3 Set at most):

    Normal:
    http://dnf.duowan.com/s/jnmn/ndz.html?DBAIFBAAA_BBBBAKAF_BBBABBBBABAABABBBBBhKVfcRFaPXJVINN_AAAAAAAAAAAAAACAAFAAFABAFB__

    With Skill Contract:
    http://dnf.duowan.com/s/jnmn/ndz.html?DBBIFBAAA_BBBBAK_BBBACBBBABAABABBBBBkKWhfTFcPaKXJPB_AAAAAAAAAAAAAACAAFAAFABAFB__

    Some notes on some of the utility stuff:

    Ancient Memory
    I think this buff skill really sucks. It's only really useful if you are literally 150 INT away from doing an important one turn boss kill in OV or something which almost never happens anymore.

    Indomitable Spirit
    In case you think about getting this for some reason, it doesn't work during skill Ninjutsu charging. It's actually completely useless on Kunoichi.

    Molting
    Molting and Body Swapping both get put on cooldown if either is used defensively, but either way I still take this for movement and the couple of times where superholding and dealing damage is not the right move.

    Shining Cut
    You can use most of the base skills for shadow illusion canceling. This is good for movement and recording skills with Samsara. The later is especially important since not all of the Kunoichi skills have the same optimal attack range for getting maximum damage (e.g.-Fiery Blooming Dance range vs Toad Oil Fire Bullet range). Recording Shining Cut during Samsara is one of the only ways to make the shadow illusion move into the right position to use skills like Fiery Blooming Dance and Body Swapping.

    During the leveling phase, you can also play around using the explosion part of shadow illusion to spend shadow illusion charges for good damage as the illusion explodes after completing shining cut.

    Diving Arrow
    Combo utility. There are enough times you might want to juggle monsters to keep them from doing certain attack patterns. Yes. Kunoichi is capable of air juggles and even infinites with a lot of practice.

    Curse Spear
    For Diregie (Reshpon). Innate Shadow Element skill.

    Eraser
    So you don't have to waste cooltime by using your main Kunoichi super hold and for some specific boss pattern cancels. Leaves you at the perfect range to use some of the air version of skills or Diving Arrow OTG.

    Double Jump
    Works great with x attacking and movement in general.

    TP Choices

    Illusion Shadow Shuriken TP (M)
    A strong skill even against small single targets (hitting w/ middle 3 illusions) and doesn't knockdown for use with the Bakal rooms. Randomly has way more value point for point over other TP skills (~+96% damage at TP Max) since it also decreases the damage penalty for the extra illusions by quite a bit.

    Spiral Great Wheel Kunai TP (M)
    Another TP passive that increases the skill's damage by over 2 times at max for some reason (a lot of TP passives are only max +50% damage). It also pushes most of the damage to the one hit finisher. A lot of Kunoichi moves have really long active durations, so having a pretty strong one hit move like this will balance out your skills pretty well for OV. Mandatory at this point.

    If you want to go total OV zerg party with SB and/or Sader, you can even get this skill to one shot OV mini-bosses pretty consistently (SB probably more impactful).

    Toad Oil Bullet Shot TP (M)
    It's actually a very hard skill to get the max damage out of it, but it does cover the biggest range and its lowest damage scenario is still higher than a lot of the other skills. For comparison, hitting just the first two sets of fire bombs (Flame Tornado range) puts it slightly above the middle for Kunoichi damage skills. The air version which only fires one big bullet is actually surprisingly decent, too.

    I suggest try maxing this and learning to position this on the fights it's good on. It's going to be way stronger during the leveling phase, anyway.

    Fiery Blooming Dance TP (1)
    Getting just one level lets you use this as a super hold mob gathering move. A lot of times I even leave the skill itself at the pre-req (10) just for this TP. For damage, though, there are way better choices since it does not share optimal attack ranges with the good skills during Samsara.

    Blazing Sky Road TP (1)
    Lets you use Blazing Sky Road as a normal grab when started from the ground really close to a mob. The first point is especially good value since the grab version of the move has an additional damage mod you can get at all TP levels (+28% to the single grabbed enemy only). The damage is dealt in a pretty small time period, too.

    However... the grab version changes its attack range a lot (Straight Down vs. At An Angle) and there's enough situations where you don't want this to happen. The skill damage is also below average not even considering that the spacing you are most likely to use it is not even the range to get max damage for it (a little bit in front of or right on top of you). It takes 6/9 Set Sky Coloring Flame for it to catch up to other skills and, way more importantly, the 80 Epic Chakra "10 Set bonus Sky Coloring Flame" to put it way over the top to match what you see in a lot of OP Kunoichi videos.

    Some of the other things you can get:

    "X Attack" Skills (xxx > Kunai Throw loop)

    Basic Attack Training TP (3 Level Max)
    This is the strongest damage bonus to x attack damage if that is your plan. It does not affect debuff or exploding tag uptime from Dark Shadow Technique, though, which is a deal breaker.

    Kunai Practice TP (1 Level Max at 3 points)
    This depends on how often you use x attacks and for what purpose. Basic Attack Training TP is more damage efficient, but Kunai Practice TP basically slightly increases the average amount of hits for use with applying Dark Shadow Technique debuffs. Kunoichi should be using their x attack a good amount in order to increase uptime on Dark Shadow Technique debuffs, so this isn't that much inferior to the other choices.

    Kunai Throw TP (1 Level Max at 3 points)
    Damage wise, this one is probably in between Kunai Practice TP and Basic Attack Training TP. The more important thing about this TP is that it lets you throw two Kunai at once (and guaranteed vs. chance based compared to Kunai Practice TP). This means better application of a lot of the Kunoichi debuffs tied to the x attack string and also lets you max out the Dark Shadow Technique exploding tag limit without having to rely on the much longer CD Illusion Shadow Shuriken. Probably the best one overall, but it requires putting SP into Kunai Throw.

    Clone and Recording Skills

    Ninja Art: Leave Shadow TP
    This quickens the recharge rate of shadow illusions while also increasing the damage of the illusions explosion finisher (any time they finish a copied move). Goes pretty well with Flying Squirrel bug mashing, but isn't as good as some of the other choices. Kind of expensive if only going for the recharge rate.

    Ninja Art: Samsara of Six Path TP
    Multiplicatively increases the damage ratio of recorded shadow skills and increases the damage of illusion explosion finisher. Usually it's a choice between this TP or Dark Shadow Technique TP.

    Dark Shadow Technique TP
    Multiplicatively increases the damage ratio of shadow illusion skills hitting assassination mark debuffed targets and increases the damage of exploding kunai tags. I like this one better than Samsara, but the decision to get either depends heavily on the content you run (Dark Shadow Technique for single target vs. Samsara for general). Sorry about those cash shop resets...

    ---

    Here's my current build as a variation of the above for comparisons (Skill Contract only. Mostly OV3. Full Single Imbue Red Spiral Great Wheel Kunai gear. Maybe Toad or Kunai set.):
    http://dnf.duowan.com/s/jnmn/ndz.html?DBBIFBAAA_BBBBAK_CBBAKBBBAAAABABBBBBkKWhfTFcPaKKJPM_AAAABAAAAAAAAABAAFAAFAAAABF__

    Basically the same as the Skill Contract build above, but with things moved around so I can get double Kunai throw for better exploding kunai tag and assassination mark uptime (from Dark Shadow Technique) and almost max 60 EX (for reliable, uninterruptable damage when shadow illusion charges are down/low).

    The exploding tags contribute more DPS than people realize. Without gear that modifies it, Dark Shadow Technique lets you apply up to 2 exploding tags on targets that explode in a small AoE after 2s. Since Illusion Shadow Shuriken and Kunai Throw are the only skills that can apply this debuff and Illusion Shadow Shuriken has a much longer cooldown, Kunai Throw TP (extra kunai thrown) is really strong for utilizing this passive when other skills or shadow illusions are on cooldown. With this combination, you can deal 6900%*2 damage every 2s (Lv10 Dark Shadow Technique + Max TP). However... you can't take advantage of the really strong assassin's mark debuff with this exploding tag.

    In order to get the above changes, Fiery Blooming Dance was lowered to the TP passive requirement and Toad Oil Fire Bullet TP was dropped. Using Fiery Blooming Dance in OV all the time isn't a good idea and it straight up bugs some fights. Toad Oil Fire Bullet is at its strongest in too few fights in OV3. Pumping the Dark Shadow Technique related abilities instead seems way better to me for all the single target fights there.
     
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  11. Enoch the Fierce Not male fighter

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    I could say you could get any skill for Kunoichi at the moment since Awakening still isn't in CDNF.

    They will reset skill trees once Awakening is updated
     
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  12. TheMechanicXYZ C.R.E.A.M.

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    Ok i don't know if i'm getting the skill wrong or what.
    The Level 35 clone skill? I press it once, and it has the icon with how many uses. I press it again, thinking the clone is about to come out, and Kunoichi makes one hand sign, and nothing happens. ???
     
  13. Enoch the Fierce Not male fighter

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    Meh, i just leave that skill icon in the planner.

    The clones replenish themselves, and all i do is just use skills in the middle of other skills.

    By the way, They say Samsara will always use the charged version of skill, But my clone only summoned a Toad that spit one time. Bug?
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2014
  14. burritoblob w0w

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    The passive starts active with full shadow illusion charges when you enter dungeon. You don't need to actually use the skill to be able to cancel charges into each other. Using the skill itself disables it which sets current shadow illusions to 0, stops shadow illusion recharge, and puts the skill on cooldown for 15ish seconds. It might seem absolutely useless, but, when you reactivate it after the CD ends, it restores shadow illusion charges back up to max. It's basically a more time efficient and burstier way to get shadow illusion charges at the cost of not being able to use skill cancels for a good bit. One of the chronicle sets requires use of this mechanic.

    I tried replicating that and I can't get Samsara Toad to do the one seal charge version which does that. Well, Kunoichi is number two buggiest class I guess...
     
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  15. Enoch the Fierce Not male fighter

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  16. Hello, I just have a few questions for these builds you guys linked.
    1.Is flying squirrel not a decent skill to max? I have been using it to lvl to 85 and a bit after and it seems pretty decent for its cd & damage and I hear some others say its pretty strong too. Wondering what are you guys' take on it?
    2. Burritoblob: I see that you mentioned in your long informative post that the xxx attacks are pretty good and are highly over looked in damage in the long run. So to apply exploding tags, wouldn't it be more advisable to max basic training TP & Kunai Mastery?
    3. Isn't Fire Art: Crimson Flare (guess thats what its called in DFOG) our buff steroid? So y not max its TP? Seems highly advantageous to do so from its description with extra fire damage, buff duration extended, and bonus damage reduction
    4. Why Kunai Throw? If its main purpose is to recover during an xxx attack, y not just cancel with backstep?
    5. Also, with the xxx attack, would it decrease our efficiency to blow things up from a speed run stand point? Just curious, as I love blowing past rooms for farming and such, but I guess that doesn't quite cover the dungeons with gimmicks like OV and such.

    Just cap lvled a couple days ago, so any info to make kuno shine be great! So far, I hear Kuno's are quite diverse as depending on what epic weap we can find, so I'm working on that + a Iridescent magi stone.
     

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