Elemental Damage and Other Modifier Testing

Discussion in 'Guides & Game Mechanics' started by Necrofancy, Apr 12, 2015.

  1. Necrofancy Blame Blob™

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    Some small tests:

    Testing on Elemental Damage Coefficient:
    Let’s say I do “A” damage on an attack with no element added to it whatsoever. This damage also has no piercing attack involved with it. Now I want to know what I can gain from elemental damage. I know that:
    [​IMG]
    But I don’t know R, or even C for that matter. I want to find these values for myself!

    I then give my weapon an element, and with my elemental damage of E1, attack the mob for an improvement of I1. I add on more element, E2, and now hit for an improvement of I2 more damage. Now, I have two equations, and two unknowns (R and C), and thus can solve for them:
    [​IMG]
    Since I can use an element-neutral attack (named.... Shadow Cut) for a baseline damage, then enchant with Shadow Element and Black Web, and vary that a bit with other Necromancer skills and free skill resets, it's pretty easy to show element stacking's linear effects, and solve for these values. I do this on a level 70 Reinforcement Machine in Training Mode.
    [​IMG]
    This seems to point towards the elemental coefficient being 222, rather than 200 from ye olde DFO testing. It also implies that the Shadow Resistance of the Reinforcement Machine is -11. This kind of sounds odd at first (I'd expect that it would be zero), but you can observe a similar effect by using either a Salamander Flask (or maybe a Jack Frost Flask) on a lowbie character and seeing the damage dealt change by a fair amount.

    Some Fiddling Around in Training Mode:
    So, I broke down Shadow Cut with no element, and compared it to what I'd expect on a 0 DEF mob.
    [​IMG] Looks like it has no defense or similar reductions.
    I started using Vallacre for testing, and compared the first basic swing with these two wands:
    [​IMG]
    So I started varying piercing, and later shadow elemental attack, on various targets in practice mode. Here were some findings:
    [​IMG]
    Some observations:
    • There seems to be a 20% reduction of piercing damage, at least in Training Mode, compared to what would normally be expected just from multiplying piercing attack by percentage.
    • Since these tests were going for breadth, rather than any real depth, the found shadow resistances are a bit inconsistent. This is because the small difference in improvement percentages (due to variance on these single instances) have a huge effect on calculated resistances.
     
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  2. Necrofancy Blame Blob™

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    Some Fiddling Around with Difficulties:
    I tried seeing what piercing reductions happen, and what happens to base damage within a dungeon depending on difficulty.
    Doing roughly the same thing as my broad comparisons earlier, I tried seeing what happens in actual dungeons:

    [​IMG]
    Couple of hidden columns for now.
    [​IMG] This basically doesn't change for any of the tests.

    Results:
    • Elemental Resistance does not appear to change with difficulty
    • Piercing damage seems to have an obvious drop off per difficulty.
      • Easy: 0~1% reduction
      • Medium: ~10% reduction
      • Hard: ~20% reduction
      • Ultimate: ~30% reduction
    • Base damage also drops off by difficulty. It is unclear whether this is a general reduction by percentage, OR if it is an increase in monster defense by a certain percentage.
      • I first solved for the apparent shadow resistance, and then used that to recalculate my expected base damage on a 0DEF mob.
      • Then, I used the base damage comparison to the actual damage on a +0 to find the percent reduction.
      • Finally, I used the percent reduction, and my level (70), to estimate for monster defense. This is using @Rhaeven's borrowed model in another Game Mechanics thread.
    • There are two possible ways that the decrease in base damage per difficulty could be explained. There is either a defense INCREASE per difficulty level, or there is a player damage DECREASE unique to each difficulty level.
      • There is a set reduction in base damage per difficulty level
        • IF this is true, then reductions seem to be as follows:
          • ~7% reduction from Medium difficulty in comparison to Easy
          • ~13% reduction from Hard difficulty in comparison to Easy
          • ~23% reduction from Ultimate difficulty in comparison to Easy
      • There is a percentage increase in monster DEF per difficulty level.
        • IF this is true, then monster defense increases are as follows:
          • ~12.5% increase in monster defense on Medium difficulty
          • ~26% increase in monster defense on Hard difficulty
          • ~52% increase in monster defense on Ultimate difficulty
    • There is no real way for me to confirm which way it works with only sampling on one mob type.
    • I will say that right now, I favor the percent increase in monster DEF as the most plausible explanation.
      • The numbers are relatively clean (it could honestly be 12.5%, 25%, and 50%, and the observed change being due to small variance).
      • Previously, there was conjecture that difficulty did not affect damage dealt. This is (likely) based on hitting switches or zero defense targets. I remember observing a damage reduction in Nexon DFO per difficulty level on different targets, but I didn't do any thorough testing on it. This would neatly explain both scenarios, as something with no reduction would take the same damage after any percent increase in defense.
      • On Ultimate Difficulty (assumed at +50% DEF) at level 70, the point where piercing reduction would equal the base damage reduction is at almost exactly 90% monster reduction. That just seems absurdly convenient for me since that's an endgame figure for overall mob reduction. :9:
     
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  3. Nier FPriest main since 2017

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    Luckily hard and ultimate road have the same drops on the content that matters :9:.
     
  4. Dubin carried by fmage

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    but nier how we gon get ultimate bragging rights if we don't clear everything on ultimate
    including 15-minute first attempts at Rangelus
     
  5. Define "content that matters". What do the drop rates vary between hard and ultimate on?
     
  6. Nier FPriest main since 2017

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    outerverse dungeons, ancients. True ancients doesn't have a difficulty mode.

    All you're really doing running ultimate is extra exp, slightly increased drop rate (which doesnt matter in outerverse because drop pool is still the same as hard) and gold. Hard mode = kings road, ultimate = hero road
     
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  7. Dubin carried by fmage

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    Except hero's road actually changed up dungeon layout etc. '3'
    *still* missing it
    esp that god tier blood sands, mite just be me but that seemed to have the best difficulty (re)balance
     
  8. Necrofancy Blame Blob™

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    Other day someone else posted a formula on damage:
    [​IMG]
    https://mirror.enha.kr/wiki/던전 앤 파이터/데미지 계산 공식


    So the elemental coefficient seems to be right :9:
     
  9. Rhaeven

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    Someone please translate the rest of that. I am quite curious as to what all those variables are.

    edit: Just looks like a whole bunch of multiplication so it's probably just all the straightforward mechanics we've known about, but still.
     
  10. Sani

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    don't know if people still care but i was asked to try translating it so i did:

    [​IMG]

    힘/지능 = strength/intelligence
    무기앞뎀 = weapon attack (99% sure but might be wrong)
    추가물/마공 = added physical/magic attack (99% sure about this too)
    버프/마스터리로 인한 증가량 = buff/increase from mastery
    속성강화 = elemental damage
    스킬데미지 = skill damage
    방어무시데미지 = piercing damage
    데미지증가 = increased damage
    데미지추가 = added damage

    a lot of these are vague (to me at least) but that's what they translate into.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 24, 2015
  11. Noriginal ㅡ_ ㅡ

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    that's elemental damage
     
  12. Sani

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    oops, that's actually what i meant. wrote down enchants by accident cause i was looking at elemental damage cards when i was looking up the term here
     
  13. Soltis [̲̅$̲̅(̲̅ ͡◥▶ ͜ʖ ͡◀◤)̲̅$̲̅]

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    !!! thanks gurl ur da kr bae 4real
     
  14. shot040

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    I was just testing in the training mode. I used the +10 to all element title from the Power Station title book. when I used that title I only got about 3.5% damage increase, about half of what you got. I was using fire damage naturally on my bowgun, but I also tried it with ice bullet and fire bullet spitfire moves.
     
  15. 10 ele damage increases your ele damage by 4.5%, 3.5% is much more than half of that...

    It will increase your overall damage by less because you already had some ele damage to start with. With 51 ele damage before the title, you would get a 3.6% increase in overall elemental damage
     
  16. Necrofancy Blame Blob™

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    10 ele damage increases your nonpiercing damage by 10/(222+Your Current Ele - Enemy Resist).

    If you have a 3.5% increased damage from adding 10 element, on reinforcement machine, there's basically two incredibly easy explanations:
    1. You have piercing attack with your percent skills (Blazing Bullet and Freezing Bullet are both percent). Piercing attack doesn't get affected by element. Try using grenades for easier comparison.
    2. You have ~53 elemental attack including reinforcement machine's resists.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2016
  17. shot040

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    Ice Grenade with +10 element (water 45): 190ish
    Ice Grenade without +10 (water 35): 183ish
    190/183=1.038.
    That's with weapon on. Without weapon on it was 1166/1124=1.037.
     
  18. Necrofancy Blame Blob™

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    [​IMG]
    Seems good? Reinforcement machine has -11~-12 resist.
     
  19. shot040

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    The reason I posted is because I thought the common consensus was 22 elemental damage adds 10% damage. My post shows this to be false.
     
  20. Necrofancy Blame Blob™

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    People who think that 22 damage always means a 10% damage increase have been wrong since, well, ever.

    It's a linearly-scaling multiplier, so adding 222 will be an additional 100% to your non-multiplied damage.

    E.g. 222 element multiplies by (1+1) = 2, a 100% increase
    Another 222 element causes the multiplier to be (1+2)=3, a 300% increase from 0 element, but only 50% when you already have 222 net element.
     
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