The DFOlaG Tier List by BoopySnoot [Cain], formerly Shikumi r.i.p Delezie I know there’s some aversion toward tier lists, but it’s a fact that they exist no matter what the casuals tell you, or how inaccurate or inconsistent this one is. It is also a fact that kDNF tiers do not apply to DFOG where latency is commonly upwards of 10x what is seen in kDNF. My goal in writing anything has always been to inform people like me and not to persuade people like you. To such people, I believe it better to direct them to an existing video that’s described the issue excellently here. Keep in mind that as with my other texts, I have written this in one sitting with minimal editing, so bear with me if there are some errors or inconsistencies. I am one person and constructed this list based on my own opinions whether they encompass or shrink from your own. I have played since alpha using a character that demands extensive game knowledge to perform and have uploaded a few pvp sessions here and there, if you want to see for yourself. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF0W-HPQy1w6IbEdE0rnSvpYLydqHl5Sq Ultimately, tier lists only gain meaning consulting a larger number of players, but many a class spoil the player in regards to game knowledge, game mechanics, game dynamics, latency dynamics, how it affects their class, and how it affects their opponents’ classes. Finally, keep in mind that I am considering all other classes and matchups equally and not the population of DFOG. If you're here to find out which class you should pick to win as much as possible, 'scum behavior' and 'giving a fuck' be damned, either pick a top tier or pick a class that beats weaponmaster. Subclasses marked with an asterisk (*) denote that I have not personally played the class. S - top tier, mostly good matchups with many that are straight up unfair A - very solid classes that can perform in almost all matchups B - C - some matchups may fuck up your options, but an average 50/50 more or less D - Male Slayer - Bullshit Wave Sword, Flipside, Guard OS Weaponmaster - S Extremely potent class that, like the other mslayer subs, thrives on OTGs and knockdowns. Ashe Fork and NWS are low cooldown filler can be confirmed into combos or OTG damage. For this sub, they are also extremely potent zoning and pressure tools that can effectively be used to stall for charge crash or cubes. Charge crash is one of the few non 45 skills with instant and fully covered super armor, doubling as an approach and ending with a launch. Charge crash will eat any delayed hits as well as win trades if you react late. Guard also becomes a potent avenue for attack with RDS, charge crash, NWS, upper, or ISD being the standard fare to mash out of it. Berserker - S Extremely safe with latency and extremely easy to play with great consistency. Mountainous Wheel is used properly as a zoning/pressure tool with its enormous aoe. Long jump-ins are risky but can be used as well with careful spacing and reads. Dead center jump-ins can be managed as well in sufficient latency by disrespecting the punish and mashing a second skill upon landing. The subclass specific shockwave on mountainous wheel and ashe fork will both give the zerker extra breathing room depending on latency and fit very well into a defensive playstyle to stall for heals and offscreen cubes. Damage can be maximized with a raging fury -> outrage break -> x -> bloodsword -> bloodlust finisher; quite capable of dealing 60-80%. Asura - C Easy to play and does not suffer as much as others in lag, but still not the best pvp subclass. Potent skills, but key cooldowns like wave radiation are too long, making it difficult to deal with faster characters that approach you from above/below. Super armored approaches or guard will easily counter you; however, the same tool is available to you. Decent damage with agni and quaker. Decent corner game with ghost orb and ice sword. Soulbender - C Latency makes attacking out of ghoststep a guessing game for both sides. However, base mslayer skills are frontloaded (quick to activate, slower to recover) and good for punishing although not the strongest tools for trading. A good turtling game, but only in specific matchups. Some classes may have difficulty going offensive around or in the circles. Phantasmal Slayer is a reliable way to force a knockdown but may be difficult to land against classes with quick mobility options or extended jumps. Followup is situational and needs QR to be down. Female Fighter - World Traveler X-String, Seismic, Doppels, and Cyclone Kick FStriker - B Gapclosers can be muscle shifted into Rising Fist or Mountain Pusher for super armor or offscreening. Obstacles on specific maps can be struck with Lightning Dance and muscle shifted for a combo. All of these are extremely potent tools, but situational in their use. It can prove difficult to catch a defensive class that runs, stays wary of your options, and has tools like Diehard, landrunners, frosties, or summons to force you into an offensive. FGrappler* - C Big damage and payoff, but restricted in their approach to the standard FFighter seismic / tornado kick. Unstoppable Grab is situational and may get traded on with other grabs. Dashes or teleports without hitboxes may also make it difficult to land. Once rolling, you can cube to pull them into the corner and then setup some additional damage with another grab against slower classes or classes without mobility options. FNen Master* - A FFighter's seismic is a risky long range approach with difficult recovery. Used predictably, it can often be reacted to. FNens' can oft sit very comfortably in their doppels / bubbles and wait for cubes; making it even more difficult to react to the fastest seismic amongst the subs. The lasting hitbox and latency desync make it even more difficult to punish without slayer guard or an appropriate super armor / 45. Charged Nen Shot can cover some choke points and creates more space than it should. A late bubble can be used in the same manner as an all direction guard or super armor skill to counter; although with longer cooldown and duration than its male counterpart. Relatively generic tools pushed to the level of zerkers due to their extra speed in conjunction with latency desync. FBrawler - B Very high damage potential with situational resets depending on class and positioning. Seismic is slow and possible to react to, but a properly spaced seismic can be safe. Several strong super armor tools can occasionally net a counter into 1 combo to take the match. Classes with potent grabs, iframes, or dashes may make it difficult to reset with net or junkspin. Male Gunner - Nades, Rising Shot, and BBQ! MRanger* - A Very well rounded class that can make it very difficult for melee classes to approach. Grenades and flame will create more space than they should. Rising Shot as filler in between will trade with any rushdown attempts and win by far. BBQ coupled with the launch will allow for entire seconds of leeway to confirm any hit. Wildshot as a relatively low cooldown super armor that covers all angles and can be cancelled on jump immediately. Very good damage that can be maximized with a juggle to cap -> death hawk 2 or 3 -> moving shot -> bbq -> punisher. Otg X loops forever if no QR. MSpitfire* - B Very high damage and cornering potential. However, very vulnerable to classes that can attack from above or below with or without super armor. Teleports or dashes can crossover and similarly punish you if you don’t have your back against the wall. Generally forced to rely on nades or mines to force a trade, but getting rushed down or caught without them will result in the match snowballing downhill very quickly. On the flipside, cornering an opponent in your combo can very quickly end the match. MMechanic* - D Very vulnerable like the MSpitfire, but without the extra nades. Reliant on Rolling Thunder to stuff opponent’s options, but in latency this will often just trade and lose. Damage potential is good with viper juggle + landrunners into detonate, but still does not set up an advantageous situation and leaves the MMechanic as vulnerable as before. Sparrow Factory / Mech Drop are slow and can be avoided or destroyed by many of the cast. MLauncher* - D Slower, inferior version of FLauncher. OTGs to cap are available to most of the gunners, but very risky for the MLauncher without extra attack speed, spriggan, status bullets/nades, or mines. Neutral game is slow and reliant on lucky hits from Cannon Ball / Quantum Bomb / desync’d rising shot. Proper zoning can be capitalized upon with flame pillar, but it remains unlikely to go into huge damage with a juggle. Female Mage - Hodor, Phase Shift, Mana Shield, and Indomitable MM! Elementalist* - S+ Extremely potent class. Frosties persist and can be used to control large areas. Fire Pillar is predictable but can force hits off said frosties and demolish all trades. Charged Pluto can reach screen width and win trades with its boomerang nature. Charged Firebomb can travel from wall to wall in Bamboo. Void can be followed and cover the elementalist from almost all approaches and hinder followups. Hodor / phase shift remain as potent as ever. Lightning can be used again as filler to stop rushdown and reset cooldowns. A little vulnerable to patient characters with persistent poke, but Arctic Burst will fill entire regions of the screen if they keep to the walls or corners. Sun Burst and Ice Walls serve as easy panic buttons covering all angles with a knockdown/knockback. Impossible matchup for many classes. Battle Mage - A Very effective class with a unique dynamic. Again, referring to the latency desync, movement type skills with a hitbox that covers your character are *very* effective, and the battlemage takes full advantage of this. If you tried to punish a battlemage who palmblasted away from you with a melee dash attack, you would get hit, but the battlemage would not. This happens because their attack is where you see it, but their character is actually further along. If they are in close proximity, they will crossover with you while your own attack whiffs in the wrong direction. To add salt to the wound, they can cycle such skills by reserving one to get out of your range or using punto for its extended super armor and then jump cancel to get right back into it. Finally, even if the initial hit is super armored, chaser launch will still take the trade for them and go into a capped OTG. Even if they miss a launch, it is extremely risky to QR due to chasers being able to knock you out if they are in transit. Thus, it becomes possible to greatly limit the actual opportunities to QR. For these reasons, it's extremely frustrating and difficult to catch them on a melee class without super armor in latency. The common strategy would be to attempt to run and reset to neutral repeatedly while trying to read and trade with their initial blow. For this reason, I imagine defensive characters would prove difficult for a battlemage. In every other matchup, the class becomes cruise control into a combo. I am told that in sufficient lag, they cannot generate chasers on hit. In my own experience with battlemages, they have been able to generate said chasers even with a red computer, so I am considering such a case as an outlier. Witch - A Extremely high potential for zoning combined with their mobility options allows them to control the pace of the match and stall for things like phase shift, hodor, and machines. Black Manteau is unreliable and tends to break especially on running targets or highly mobile characters just like other ranged superholds. More reliant on mobility than her Elementalist sister, but has a greater combo potential and corner game with her cubes. Summoner - S+ I’ll prefix this by saying everyone rags on and misunderstands Summoners. I have seen a number of summoners on DFOG at various RPs and… I do not believe even one of them was playing the class to its full potential. It is likely *more* op than everyone thinks. With juggles it becomes possible to line up your summon durations/cds to create advantageous situations, not just sac. With indomitable spirit + MM, you gain a low cooldown super armor option to cover openings in your summons. Even if these tools fall flat, summoners remain extremely potent by just being able to hide in a large number of desync’d hitboxes from their summons and continue to run and summon. S for scummy. Real scummy. Priest - GWL, GWL, Smasher relaunch, GWL! Crusader - B Against various magic classes, RoL makes it very difficult or impossible to combo. Stalling for this skill can then make it impossible for them to go on the offensive, which is just what you want with all your heals and fountain of life. However, having only basic priest stuff with a few added projectiles makes it hurt just as hard for other matchups. Very basic priest rewarding passive play with heals. Can set up advantage at the end of combos with Pressure Wall, or go for resets with spear and flash sphere. Exorcist - B Extremely high potential against melee matchups by turtling with white tigers and setting up massive combos with double dog hold and talismans. Likely just as hard to play against classes that can bombard you from afar and easily destroy your objects. Monk - A The number one class if you want to control the pacing of the match. Takes a lot of time in lab to master duck & sway and experience to master due to the small aoe on most of his catches and the precision required. Hurricane & Roll is an extremely potent tool regardless and can be stalled for very effectively with duck & sway. Damage has high potential with viable and easy standing cap and shadow clone dash attack to cap OTG, holding HnR to pressure QR or wakeup. Great potential in most matchups, but has difficulty against classes that play patient and can naturally hit OTG to stuff your duck & sway. Avenger* - C Decent coverage with devil strikes, but doesn’t work against super armor approaches. I can see the class having difficulty against many of the defensive characters. Thorns is a hitstun skill and may lose against high knockups. Spinning deformation is punishable by some classes. Reaper can be backstepped. Very good OTGs and damage potential, but similar to crusader in that he’s heavily reliant on his base class tools while his subclass tools do not cover his poor matchups very well. Female Gunner - Happy Feet and Spriggan Female Ranger - A+ Like her male counterpart, but better. Increased movespeed and launch on wildshot in place of accessible grenades. Spriggan allows for OTG pressure and potential OTG cap and can occasionally pull a target out of their QR if they are mashing. Female Spitfire - S+ This class becomes S tier for one very simple reason. With desync’d nades, you can cover your landing and thus become invincible to the majority of the DFOG cast. The only times you would then get caught would be if they take a risk and read your jump, in which case you’re still safe if you have mines set up below you. Leather Armor Mastery attack speed in conjunction with bullet enchants allows for all kinds of standing or OTG damage with hand cannons and, as I recently found out, even muskets. Female Mechanic - C Similar to male counterpart, but spriggan is a very valuable tool to pressure QR, and thus, give you access to OTGs which can be used to stall for you to set up more. Faster movespeed and the tempester counterpart shoots more rockets than bullets. Female Launcher - B Access to OTGs due to spriggan pressure is *HUGE* for FLauncher. Cannon Ball can easily catch and let you confirm into a full OTG. Faster movement speed also means you can cut off an approaching opponent in less distance and then stop them short with flame pillar. Like MLauncher, but with changes in all the right places. Unfortunately, they don’t have a great panic button like rangers but remain in a very good place. Thief - Molting, Kunai Spam, and Dark Soul Rogue - C Gets affected negatively by latency *the most* amongst the DFOG cast. There are a few good matchups for rogue, but everything gets pushed down a couple notches due to the nature of all of her options. Natural gameplan is to use various base thief projectiles to unbalance the opponent and then approach in sync with one of the projectiles. However, latency desync easily fucks up any attempt to chain your projectile hitstun with an approach. Your approaches also being dependent on hitstun and having no super armor means that attempts to confirm projectile hits on reaction become extremely risky. Attempting to warp approaches into grabs still occasionally result in failure in trades, due to double piercer, sonic assault, and excel not giving iframes until deep in the skill if at all. Being able to adjust to the amount of latency is a must, and fortunately rogue has many tools to retain a hit and run playstyle until you decide to rush in. Second after monk in built-in technical difficulty. Very interesting class, but would only recommend to M. A reasonably complicated pvp character, but demands a significant amount of work to adapt for latency. In excessive amounts of latency, your basic options become unreliable and impossible to confirm into combos on reaction. Since it was brought up recently, I want to mention again here that full X strings in standing combos are *not* legit on a rogue. An inconsistent hitstop will dumpster you at your first x when playing against another player. M69N (6Luna9) is a known autokeyer and likely so is anyone else consistently spamming that crap in and out of lag. Necromancer - S+ This class is like the nen master of keepaway. They have several generic tools to just pester you while running away and stalling, but the thief movement speed, shining cut, and molting push it over the top. Nicholas is impossible to safely kill for more than half the cast while avoiding Black Wave, leaving them struggling to go on the offensive during Vallacre by lucksacking a backstep on Guillotine. The giant aoe slow just makes it all the worse. Shadow Dancer - S She doesn’t particularly benefit from latency, but this class is just that op. Viable and easy standing to cap. Shadow Trip oft breaks and stuffs super armor skills in latency when it shouldn’t at all. Extremely high damage with the ability to chain multiple grabs on the finisher and a legitimate reset. And to top it all off, she’s extremely easy to play. S for scumdancer. Real scummy. Kunoichi - B Falls short due to her reliance on her x attacks / spiral wheel kunai. Excellent range on the x string, but initial projectiles are often ignore and stuffed. Unlike gunner projectiles, her x string kunai travel straight and have a thin y axis reach; forcing you to want to line up precisely, often letting the opponent get in range for an approach and then stuff your attempt. Even if you wall them with x projectiles, it remains difficult to capitalize due to the nature of spiral wheel kunai. The skill sends out a large kunai that stops on the first target and multi-hits before exploding. In any amount of latency, the skill simply doesn’t stop until after it passes them; effectively making the skill completely useless except using its aerial version in a combo. In sufficient lag, it becomes impossible to perform your other commonly used confirm of flame cut into flame tornado. Trying to perform this on reaction generally leaves you throwing away your tornado cooldown at an opponent in QR or already recovered naturally and about to pound your face in. If ever you find a connection good enough that your grounded spiral wheel goes into a full combo, put an S back on there. Male Fighter - XX warp & relaunch, pure walk, doppels! MStriker* - B Very quick burst movement but linear approaches like his female counterpart. Damage is significantly greater with the potential for a lightning dance reset off an OTG pickup. MStriker’s tornado kick has quick multi-hit properties with knockdown on every kick, allowing for a very potent close proximity panic button that will on occasion beat super armor. MGrappler* - B Like his female counterpart, tends to have a bad time in matchups where the opponent can trade grabs with your unstoppable grab. Significantly better damage with easier confirms due to XX knee kick. Pure Walk allows for a quick approach and can be potent in conjunction with unstoppable grab. MNen Master* - S Stronger variant of his female counterpart. Many characters will attempt to approach from a very low angle above or below to avoid getting hit by various nen projectiles; the male variant of seismic helps cover this by having an evenly distributed hitbox covering every angle. A pure walk juke can setup for a quick haitai or nen shot to confirm. A more accessible nen bubble allows it to better perform as an omnidirectional guard that also blocks grabs. And like before, the free speed in conjunction with latency desync makes it impossibly difficult to punish obvious targets like their seismic. MBrawler - B Very wide reaching zone control. The sheer reach of their strengthened needles / poison bottle means that trades will often not be an issue. Confirm into a brick or purewalk tornado kick. Very good damage potential with situational net resets. A purewalk juke can be confirmed with a brick *_>*. Needle spin is also an option in the corner. Male Mage - God tier Z Upper Elemental Bomber* - B Very potent keepaway game by use of teleport and walling off approach angles with x projectiles and backstep cancel. Strong cubes for clearing out projectiles and forcing other defensive characters into moving. Decent cornering game, but no carry in combos means that you won’t often get a chance to soft reset. Glacial Master* - A Similar to his EB brother, being able to wall off approach angles with x projectiles, but without backstep cancel it becomes riskier. Offensive game is significantly more potent with the ability to confirm interrupts or poor positioning into ice arrows and then a knockdown and the potential to take any knockdown into a full juggle with their melee x bounces. Ice crash allows for an easy push to the wall or corner. Shotgunning grand shatter for very good damage finisher. Ice trap then allows for some extra damage on wakeup with its superhold properties or a potential reset. Elven Knight - B for boobs Multiple hitstun skills for neutral that do not necessarily confirm into each other. With the highest movement speed in the game, she can maintain pressure while waiting for a chance to all in, like a rogue. However, guard and multiple super armored cubes allow her to hold a more aggressive position successfully. Her guard, unlike slayer guard, can be cancelled into skills immediately, so an option select is unfortunately not possible. A successful standing confirm can allow you to tack on the rest of your CDs in standing combo damage and a very simple finisher of wheel of fate -> elvish jump -> finish adds a ridiculous 20-30 percent. Dark Knight - A With a proper skill setup, a dark knight can bring most of their rotations to around 15 seconds to throw out slayer 45s every 15 seconds. While this seems ridiculous, they are forced to still use the rest of the skills in the chain and cycle them with an internal cd; making them more clunky and predictable than they would be otherwise. Without guard, flipside, or NWS on a 4 second cooldown, they become much more manageable, but still remain an extremely potent class. The reason for this being their potential to warp large slayer melee skills like dark slash or dark whip into a combo and then deal upwards of 70% in an air combo if their cooldowns are up. Female Slayer - Sucks except for sword master Sword Master - S+ This class is naturally very strong and latency does little to change that except in summoner / necromancer type matchups. All of their attacks are packed with a ton of hitstop that will naturally break basic short super armor skills and come with an ice spear proc. Swift slash launches only slightly but even has more hitstop a la rising shot, making it very easy to confirm even in heavy lag. Rather, heavy lag makes it more difficult to avoid trading with this skill with persistent skills like gore cross since they will make contact with you before your attack registers. On top of this, they have illusion slash to create space or camp QR and muscle shift. With their variant of gore slash hitting OTG, it becomes very simple to capitalize off any knockdowns including draw sword. Vagabond - B Extremely linear and easy to play character with a ton of attack speed from having both leather armor mastery and access to lightsabers making her naturally safe on almost all her attacks and complimenting her ability to punish out of guard or super armor. Soaring covers all angles as a grab, and fluttering blades allows you to create space to recover cooldowns. Any knockdowns can targeted safely since you will recover quickly enough even after QR whiffed attacks to throw out additional skills. If overcapped on OTG in an air juggle after otg pickup, it’s possible to very simply reset OTG cap by using spiritual suction before they land. The skill makes the grab decision before the actual grab, allowing the opponent to land and insta-stand before throwing them. This allows the class to achieve very solid, easy to perform damage consistently. Dark Templar - C The crux of every aspect of her gameplay breaks with the slightest bit of latency. She has excellent tools in neutral with shadow harvest being a very quick aoe hitstun, guard, and shadow hiding, but to confirm into any sort of damage it becomes necessary to use either shadow binding or castigation. Shadow Binding stands the opponent up in a hold before releasing them and shooting several pillars up along its length. Because it releases them before launching them, it becomes possible for most classes to mash a super armor skill or their Z and counter attack you quite easily. The obvious solution would be to grab them following shadow binding, but this is where DTs fall flat in latency. Castigation has by far the worst hit detection in the game out of all the grabs. As with other ranged superholds that don’t even make the cut of ‘grab’, they cannot be warped, so if you otg x castigation and they QR, they won’t get pulled out unless castigation itself hit them. On top of this, the active frames are considerably shorter than the animation itself, so it becomes very easy to punish an attempted castigation. Both this skill and Dark Cape, along with her other “grabs” do not grant you any form of invincibility; meaning even if they connect, you are liable to get knocked out by a persistent effect like raging fury, fire pillar, or summons. In sufficient lag, both skills will go through the animation locking you in place while the opponent is free to move, invisibly on your screen, and punish you. On the player side, this means that whether your character goes through with the grab or not, you do not know for sure that you clinched the combo and your followup following the grab is still an additional risk. In spite of all this, it is possible to fish for mistakes with shadow binding and guard and turn a match around with her insane damage potential. Demon Slayer - D This class is simply too slow with too many vulnerabilities. Many of the skills granted by her subclass do not cover directly above, below, or behind her. Coupled with long recovery this makes her vulnerable to almost any class with mobility type skills or guard. I’ve tried experimenting with various combo possibilities such as wild thrash -> draw -> impale -> thrash or going for soft resets with blood majin, but damage and potential remains relatively unimpressive. Some slow matchups might allow her to play keepaway effectively, but overall she seems to be a poor choice for pvp. Afterword Creating this tier list helped me, partially, to understand the performance of our players in the tournament. Just as an example, an EB on DFOG will likely see initial projectiles get ignored or stuffed by trades, thus SSTJ through practice gets accustomed to accomodating that by creating extra space before throwing out any projectiles. A male ranger is by no means bad in latency, but tools such as blank rising shot in close proximity become very high risk and high reward. Where it would normally trade and then win, SnowWhite instead got stuffed and punished. Both are likely excellent players, but latency will develop different habits in players. And if the skills don't hold in offline or tournament play, that simply means you were spoiled by various advantages. By creating this tier list, I am not saying I want everyone to just pick one of my top tiers. I do want the variety in the PVP scene to thrive and flourish, but I cannot deny that the prospects are bleak and the smart thing to do would be to pick a class to accommodate for lag. But if you do want to improve as a player, keep in mind that there's a distinction: I don't mean to tell you to go the opposite way and pick a low tier instead. Indeed, there are certain skills that can be learned by climbing your way up with a low tier, but they are in no way exclusive. What I recommend is to pick a class whose playstyle in latency matches the projected playstyle in no latency. This in itself would take a whole 'nother discussion so we'll save that for a later date provided there is interest . Thanks for reading! Formatting and editing to come at a later time when I'm less tired =). If you enjoyed this, check out my other posts on understanding latency and setting up hotkeys for complicated classes, or check out my stream if I'm ever on.