Chron sets and Landrunners/TimeBomb vs Vipers

Discussion in 'Mechanic' started by RealityBreak, Aug 4, 2015.

  1. First off, landrunners/time bombs vs viper dps; you could get a 6 piece Rusted Robot and 3 piece Devil's Toybox for ridiculous viper damage, or you could get Crazed Arsonist, the most popular chron set. I'm pretty sure Vipers would do more dps under most circumstances, but of the aoe is linear, and would probably be less convenient for normal dungeon room clearing (as opposed to dpsing a boss).
    I'd like to note that without chron (only tps), landrunner and EZ-8 combined dps is about 65% that of Viper's.
    And then there's the Deep Cover set; it gives great bonuses, with landrunners/time bombs comparable to that of Crazed Arsonist, along with mech drop buffs, but it doesn't give the explosion range increase (which is pretty significant; it's the main reason I'd get this set over any other). On the other hand, it gives detonation damage and buffs your strongest burst skill, mech drop. I'm thinking that with the new changes in KDNF, with A team, detonatable sparrows and tempester, that detonation buff damage could become more significant dps wise.
    A full Rusted Robot set looks really cheesy for mech drop, and gives smaller buffs to sparrow and viper, but it's difficult to gauge the dps you'd be getting out of that.
    Any thoughts? Maybe some solid % output numbers?
     
  2. Raze

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    6 Piece Devil's Toybox produces stronger vipers than 6 piece Rusted Robot w/ 3 Piece Toybox.

    The only advantage 6/3 has it that you produce vipers that last longer so you don't have to waste time/mana constantly resummoning them. You will be able to hit the maximum cap regardless.

    Deep cover is an Inferior set to crazed arsonist simply because Crazed Arsonist gives Land Runner more damage ontop of CDR and explosion radius, It literally has no advantage when it comes to land runner and the 9pc effect isn't that good

    I've seen videos of a Male Mech with a Mech Drop set up who, funny enough, had a second mechanic as a supporter to use mech drop with. Assuming you have 9pc Rusted Robot and a Machinist Fury you can potentially reduce it's CD by 57% (With Manual Casting and Max HS-1 Friends) and increase its burst to even more insane levels....but a 22 second Cube compared to land runners and Ez-8's with practically no CDs it just loses. Far more damage that 22 second time frame

    Crazed Arsonist is the best set followed by 6 piece Devils Toybox. If you want to be raid viable you're going to want one of those two sets, everything else is extra
     
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  3. BlackDawn Fuck JavaScript

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    When you're are mech. There are only two general playing styles, Burst (i.e Ez-8, landrunner, Ez-10, mech drop etc.) or long duration DPS (i.e. Viper, Tempester, Sparrow etc.)
    Theres no need to use any of the Ov3 Chron sets because they don't specialize in any particular playing style. It's just a mash of random skills in one set. Ov3 Chrons sets does not bring out the best possible potential of either of the two primary playing styles. In fact it'll actually make it more weaker.

    6 piece rusted robot and 3 pc Devil's Toybox vs 6 pc Devil's toybox (Long DPS Stlye):
    The 6/3 set you purpose will not bring out vipers to there best potential. 6 pc devil's toybox does 60% more damage while the 6/3 you mention will only bring 45% more damage. It is true you will use more mana using 6pc devil's toybox than the other 6/3 set, however above when a M.Mech hits above level 80 mana drainage isn't so much of a problem anymore and even if you're still having problems Mana pots should be enough to suffice. Now if you're talking on terms of anton raid/dungeons 9 times out of 10 you will have a FS sader with you to keep you company so mana drainage isn't so much as a problem. Also keep in mind that there is a 7 viper planting cap. So having more duration isn't really all that important at that point.

    Deep Cover vs Crazed Arsonist (Burst)
    It is true that 3 piece Deep Cover beats 3 piece Crazed arsonist out of the water, however any pieces beyond that crazed arsonist destroys deep cover with more damage and lesser cooldowns. Now 6 piece deep cover may have "some" standing ground when it comes to detonation damage of blowing up your bots......in KDNF. But atm here in DFOG (and in anton raid if I may add) your goal is to get as many bots to pop off as quickly as possible with the most damage possible. The cooldown time and damage just does not amount to the power that Crazed Arsonist have.

    CA: Landrunner 70% more damage, a flat 1 second cool down, and significantly longer lifespan. (Did not add the 5% detonation damage.)
    DC: Landrunner 45% more damage and a 30% cooldown (.75 second cool down). (Now granted with the additional 15% detonation damage you're still going to be lacking 10% of damage to CA.)
    Which one are you gonna pick?
     
  4. Thanks for the info on the vipers; didn't know there was a 7 viper stack limit; I thought I could get ridiculous vipers with the 6/3 lol... I don't suppose you know how the percent duration and flat duration stack?
    I quite like like deep cover for the mech drop boost too, but yeah, right now I wouldn't consider it. If only I could get ov2 set drops, but I've gotten like 1... ever, since ov came out.
    Also, how would you directly compare Devil's Toybox and Crazed Arsonist for dps?
    Actually, I kinda like Rusted Robot; is it really that bad for damage?
    Actually actually, L>best chron set by Korean standards x.x
    Nvm, did some calculations and Devil's Toybox is the strongest by a long shot...
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2015
  5. Raze

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    Viper does not have the free range and Instant Burst as Land Runners, And it isn't affected By Kurgiv's Necklace. Which gives 20pct Extra Damage to Land Runner and 10pct Extra Damage to Ez-8


    Kurgiv's Necklace > Elemental Damage tear because w/ enchants, Pets, and titles, you'll have enough Fire damage to the point where an elemental damage tear won't be worth it (Diminishing Returns).

    Toybox has its uses and is by no means not end game, but land runners/Ez-8 are insane in well rounded sustain burst DPS. You're not doing True vilmark in 30 seconds w/ Viper
     
  6. What's this Kurgiv's necklace?
    Also, is 6 piece crazed arsonist worth running? (instead of 9 piece) Non OV Accessories give a pretty big damage boost.
     
  7. Raze

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    it's in DFOpedia
     
  8. So do I actually need the full 9 piece crazed, or is 6 piece with accessories reasonable? Also, that mech drop thing sounds pretty funny, can you link the video?
     
  9. Raze

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    You need 9 piece Crazed

    There are bootleg sets 6/3 C3/C2 respectively, but the 9pc C2 sets have the advantage of DAMAGE. The cd's will be comparable however if you went 6/3 Deepcover/Arsonist

    The only accessory that matters is Kurgiv, 6 piece sets are pretty lackluster
     
  10. Doodle

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    Too much text incoming!

    6pt Toybox is just going to give you more dps bar-none, no-bars to be had. Vipers win the DPS contest in regards to OV set. They ramp up to a fully sustainable 42 attacks per second @ what? like 1,500% damage per attack fully TP and OV'd? Crazed Arsonist Land Runners get up to something like 15,000%, 7~8k per runner, TP and OV'd and Detonation TP and OV'd per second. Over the course of 1 second, 1 Toybox Viper does a little over half the damage of the Land Runners that you just detonated and are waiting to summon again, when you add one more viper, you're doing more damage than Crazed Land Runners, add two more vipers and you surpass the dps boost provided in synergy the Crazed has with EZ-8, add the other 3 Vipers and you very nearly double the DPS output.

    So far I've only been comparing 1 skill(6toybox) to 3 skills(9crazed) but lets take total dps into consideration, with a 9pt crazed you will only ever have 3 vipers out at max dealing 15 attacks per second at something like 900% damage per attack, with 6set toybox you can still go 3set crazed and sit pretty easy at a little under half the dps of a 9pt crazed's land runner which speaks for itself...

    Now to speak for the vocal majority of the posts I'm reading here... Vipers are clunky, If you don't have 4 of them hitting the right target then you're just losing dps, on top of that ToyBox makes your vipers last for 11.5 seconds which means if you don't position them correctly... you've got a preeetty long wait, this spells tragedy during extremely mobile or gimmicky boss fights that require extreme amounts of repositioning but this is relative; the crazed arsonist mech would also face this problem with their vipers, the difference comes from the fact that they aren't as reliant on the positioning of their Vipers so even if they have misplaced vipers everywhere their DPS is stable and constant with detonation spam.

    Now to speak for the silent minority, Crazed Arsonist lowers Land Runner and EZ-8 cooldowns by fixed amounts instead of percent, so getting 100% cooldown reduction (or 0second cooldowns) to spam the fuck out of land runners and ez-8 bombs through HS-1 Friend would be nearly impossible, in fact you only have the potential of getting 75% CDR (which is enough to spam them fast, but not enough to super spam them with HS-1 Friend) meanwhile with a 6pt Toybox set you can simply use the free 3 slots of gear to get double imbues for EZ-8 and Land Runner cooldown and mp consumption and easily make up for the 25% CDR the 9P set lacks, and yeah, this is just gravy dps, it doesn't make too much of a difference since EZ-8 and Land runner will have extremely low cooldowns with Crazed Arsonist, but they will still lack that 0 second cooldown... unless they have an Elven Knight support or something lol, but that's farfetched. Also, yeah, on the topic of gear restraints, you do really have to go for the 9piece set, you have to give up some gear slots, trying to do 6p Crazed Arsonist leaves you with a gimped EZ-8 time bomb, which is effectively a little under half of your dps if you go with a boombot-centric build.

    Now, to solidify Crazed Arsonist as a SUPER solid set for BURST(sudden) damage, speed running, and room clearing, with arsonist; the optimal damage spike happens immediately instead of 10 seconds later, and the blast radius from arsonist just ensures that your kawaii-bots nuke EVERYTHING, but ToyBox can still do these things, it's not like you don't have Land Runners or EZ-8s, It just takes you about 2.5 times longer to do the same thing, which is really only a considerable amount of time loss when speed running true vilmark or if you really don't have a decent sub-burst dmg dealer in your random "gotta go fast" parties, but the sheer fact that you can destroy rooms and do about 60% the total DPS of a ToyBox Viper set-up speaks wonders to the well-rounded aspect of this set, with all things considered this set would be better than Toy Box for a Mechanic looking for more acceleration with less regard for top-end speed. Did I mention big explosions? Yeah.. well.. Big explosions.

    To further solidify 6p Devil's ToyBox as a SUPER solid set for DPS, boss shredding, and simply dealing the absolute most damage to single targets after the 10 second ramp up period (or 1 second if you have at least 10% cooldown reduction from gear + mind stimulant... (which you should actually be trying to get ((from at least one or two epic pieces)) because the Neo Auto gun is still pretty much bread and butter despite which set you go for and the fact that you're probably the best scaling class with 100% cooldown reduction considering HS-1 basically causing you to triple cast everything instaneously)... but if you do have that then you can literally shit all of your vipers out in an instant with the toybox set, you just won't be able to re-position them for 11 seconds) ...that's okay, though, if you have a scaffold slave in your party then positioning and ramping up all 7 of your vipers is not a problem, also I should say this right now, Viper bullets do have slight homing effects, they aren't completely linear (thank god) so they aren't the worst thing in the world to position in the first place. and it's easier for your summoner bff to consistently lasher longer-lasting summons than minute-man kami-kaze bots ~as if the int boost is even required on top of selist's aura. Though I'm pretty sure 750+ int is a very welcomed buff no matter what~ of course almost none of this DPS actually translates into time-efficiency until you meet a boss with more than 250 bars of life, so honestly not often lol, but it's at that point that you show your worth as one of the top-tier DPS classes with near-minimalist gearing requirements..

    In the end, there is no best choice between these two, they both are solid for what they do and each have optimal situations, but it should be laid to rest that they are the two single best choices when it comes to Male Mech OV sets, Rusted Robot is not worth it, 3pc Toy Box is much better than 6pc Rusted Robot on it's own for the simple fact that 3pc Toy box increases the firing speed of vipers by 20%, and there's no reason to mix-match Rusted Robot 6pc with 3pc ToyBox because +50% duration is not required and would probably be more detrimental than helpful because with a 6pc ToyBox you would already be at a sustainable level of maximum vipers because-50% Viper cooldown and HS-1 friend would add -10% turning the 3.5 second cooldown into a 1.4 second cooldown, now multiply 1.4 by 7 (the maximum number of vipers) and you reach 9.8 seconds (this is the minimum ramp up time for all of your vipers without further boosting of cooldown reduction from ulterior sources). 6Pc Toybox vipers last 11.5 seconds with the EX-S Viper TP, so a 9.8 second ramp up period for all 7 vipers is more than enough to get 7 out and allow your 8th to be off cooldown before the 1st one self-destructs with a 0.3 second period in between for you to scratch your butt, so there's absolutely no reason to sacrifice 3 gear slots just to end up with less damage, higher cooldowns, and end up with a clear cube fragment cost on a skill you literally spam off cooldown.

    As for 9pc Rusted Robot; Mech drop is basically a Mechanic's 2nd strongest burst skill with the 4pt TP, but unfortunately even with the set it's still only about as strong as like 4 casts of crazed land runner+Ez-8 or 2 seconds of 7 toybox vipers, which is actually a lot of damage considering, but it's highly unlikely that you'd be able to get it's cooldown low enough to make it effective enough to destroy both lesser CPUs or dps meters, and the spacing reduction also provides the set with less effectiveness in bursting rooms as the spread of damage is reduced significantly... It's just one of those fun sets that could potentially become OP if you dedicate all of your equipment slots to CDR, but unfortunately you would more than likely just end up in a sub-optimal hybrid role of lower dps and slower burst even under the best scenarios.. but It would have the absolute best frame loss and again, it is probably one of the funner sets to play around with. :' ]

    That's it for me... Wall of text over.

    edit: TL;DR: 6pc Devil's ToyBox is way better for DPS boss shredding(like anton levels of HP), 9pc Crazed Arsonist is way better for genocidal room bursting(like daily OVs and ancients), and they're both better than any of the other OV options.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2015
  11. Imp Imp-resive

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    i don't know if its been said or not but 6 devils takes less time to put together then a 9 crazed and leaves more slots open for epics or other fancy stuff. not majorly important but still something to keep in mind.
     
  12. Raze

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    what epics would you even take. Diminishing returns for fire damage after 110 which is incredibly easy to surpass with future pets, titles, and enchants to magic stones, whereas Crazed Arsonist only needs Kurgiv's, which is a legendary and scales better because it's a flat increase of 20pct bonus damage to land runners and 10pct to Ez-8, Not even factoring in the bonuses it gives to cube skills.

    Viper isn't one of the skills that benefits from Kurgiv's. Summons do not benefit from attack damage, and more CDR is irrelevant because of the cap.

    apparently there is this thing called Skill damage that works as attack damage for summons, Do you happen to know what anton equips give skill damage?
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2015
  13. Doodle

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    20% damage only makes up for the 20% increased firing speed of the 3pt toybox, it hardly gets close to mirroring the fully ramped DPS of a viper centric build and ToyBox mechs STILL USE land runners and EZ-8s so... if they really want to give up fire damage for "BETTER SCALING" then they can totally match Crazed builds in that one aspect.

    I really wasn't aware there was a CDR Cap? O_ o Is that really a thing now?

    Also I think there was an epic armor part that gave a -fire resist aura vs enemies, that's probably B.I.S for both builds... ahh edit: "Flame Drop Trousers" is the name of them, and I think it's super B.I.S provided you're in 120px range of your target, but i'm not gonna lie that is pretty much point blank, you'd have to be as close to the mob as possible with vipers..even then it wouldn't be enough... welp forget that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2015
  14. Raze

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    You misunderstand, Vipers have a cap of 7, More CDR does nothing for that, and 15pct CDR is Shit for the skills that matter, so you're better off going 3pc arsonist anyway, OR 3 piece Deep cover because I believe the Ez-8 bonus damage beats out the half second reduction on Land runner

    also did you not factor in the 20pct speed increase in your calculation...? Kurgiv's is not a part of arsonist
     
  15. Doodle

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    Well yeah, Vipers definitely have a capped limit but the extra CDR is to bring the rest of your skills up to spammable levels, and to be honest, I was just spit-balling on what could be done after Toybox establishes itself as top dawg in dps... for example 0 cooldown' on both skills that Arsonist Buffs... but by no means am I saying it is optimal, lets be real, more fire damage would probably be the best bet, there's no diminishing returns so much as it is comparative ratio, as in it's additive with itself but still multiplicative to most of the main dmg source, and compared to the 20% more (multiplicative with elemental dmg) dmg from kurgiv @110 fire damage you would still see the same damage increase with about 40~60 Fire Damage still, sooo.. really a Tear and necklace would equal out to that damage increase to land runner and ez-8 but has the added benefit of also... buffing every skill that you're also spamming off cooldown instead of just two...so even if you're stacked up to 200 fire damage a 50 fire damage increase is still going to be a bigger over-all dps increase based on all the burst-type skills that M mechs throw down in conjunction, but like I've said... You're not pressed on gear slots with ToyBox so... even if you get to a ridiculous amount of fire damage, and the only way to increase your top-end dps is to go Kurgiv...Then you have the freedom to Kurgiv on a character that doesn't use arsonist.

    Also... Doesn't Kurgiv's skill damage increase stack additionally with the other skill damage increases of the +50% TP and of course the 80% from Crazed Arsonist adding up to a total of 130% skill damage? I know it's worded as "attack strength" but have you ever actually tried it?

    Of course I factored it in, like I said, Kurgiv basically makes up for a bite-size portion of the dps that boom bots lack in straight-up single target dps, and it only costs 1 extra gear slot, so maybe I should factor Kurgiv into the crazed arsonist 10pt set and still watch 6ptoybox trump it. O _O Arsonist would still need about +40~50% dmg to realistically compete with the mad devil deeps.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2015
  16. Imp Imp-resive

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    Hate to dampen you guy's burning passion but I don't think ether of you can truly say who's set is better till someone who has both sets and optimal add ons posts damage tables.
     
  17. Raze

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    i mean yeah viper does theoretically have the potential for highest DPS but so does Broken Arrow set on Glacial Master

    Neither are favored because CA/Ice Floral Hell are both more optimal in a majority of situations and offer faster clear times because there's this thing Viper does where a launchable enemy will get juggled until viper expires, and it's RAMP up damage

    There are a couple of bosses and scenarios that make Toybox vastly superior in anton but other than that, KDnF mechs switch back to arsonist for everything else.

    if you want proof of that look at some of the videos BlackDawn has posted

    you have to remember that AoE and Burst is king in this game, not Sustained damage. More scenarios favor the former not the latter

    it doesn't matter though, both are end game sets for Anton, the other sets are not
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2015
  18. BlackDawn Fuck JavaScript

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    I need to start posting more videos to start ending these debates. Hopefully when Im not burried in first semester college materical my freaking professor gave us to studied for the week -.-. Can't beileve I have the time to post this here lol.
    For the sake of argument and validity, I have 6pc devil's and 9 pc crazed also along with other 3 or more pieces of other mechanic sets AKA the garbage sets. No one cares about those.
    [​IMG]
    Now onto the main argument at hand here.
    Crazed arsonist/Devil's toybox vs other sets.
    Time to get the easier one out the way, Every other set compared to 9PC crazed and 6pc Devil's toybox is garbage hands down. No amount of chron mixing or epic mixing will ever get you above or stronger than these two sets. Im not saying the other sets are garbage themselves (I do have fun using mech drop set every now and then and seeing G2 rolling thunder spin super fast wheeeeeeeeeee) but you will never be a top tier mech if you don't possess either or these two sets.

    Now onto crazed arsonist and this kurgiv's nonsense.
    Kurgiv is a pretty nice legendary not gonna lie. If you have it, great. Personally I dont have this accessory yet and I'm not going to go out of my way to obtain it. Let me explain.
    With any 9pc set you only have 2 slots open at your discretion. With that being said depending on your class you want a certain slot available to you. We are Male Mechanics. We are a percent class. Your goal is to get solid variables, not calculations that can fluctuate. Also to be a top tier mech you want you fire damage to be at least over 90 (My preference is 95 but we all know we don't have money for enchants and crap.) Replacing your stone slot with this necklace will decrease your potential of releasing your maximum overall damage output. However, don't misunderstand this. 9pc crazed with this necklace is a great combo but you will not hit top peak if you are not using a fire-element magic stone (i.e Seliest's Tear or Even better Jack-o-Latern Core).

    Which set is better? Crazed Arsonist or Devil's Toybox?
    In all honesty, this comes down to preference. Personally I favor devil's toybox because I'm a lazy ass mech lol. I don't feel like having to poop out bots every second to keep my DPS streak going. Yes, crazed arsonist is the best set for speed runs and taking on mobs. (I nuke Void Rift boss so easily LOL). However if you are fighting bosses with large sum amounts of HP than devil's tobox would be the more easier way to take care of them.
    Also about bosses that move around a lot, there's a very quick easy fix for that. Simply BBQ the boss and plant vipers before they hit the ground and whala! Also for more immobility proc plant sparrow nest for a greater effect. Now that we're getting HS-1 Friends on Tuesday this technique will be much easier to utilize.

    Flame Drop trouser + Devil's Toybox
    I'm fully aware of this combination since KDNF first drop 85 patch lol. This epic pants is more oriented for melee classes. Using this is hella risky lol. You have to be close proximity to your enemy/enemies for this to work. Remember we mechs don't have great defense. 2-3 hits could easily kill us especially since now enemy bosses above level 80 have a much more noticeable AoE factors to their attacks. So getting close to your enemy is not a smart idea lol. And if your considering anton possibility with this than your gonna be working your sader overtime healing you because mobs there have aggro's to a point you wouldn't beileve. To be honest, devil's toybox works best if you're at a vast distance away from the enemy. But it's not like you have anything else to put in this slot so if your a risky player go ahead. Personally I wouldn't recommend it. There are many other BIS options such as using imbued tainted pieces.

    Onto end game weapons.
    Obviously Neo's Automatic gun is the best choice over all the other epic weapons. However with epic auto guns you can't really go wrong if you don't end up with that weapon specifically. Hell you can still be anton tier if you were to rock a +13 or +14 magic sealed tbh lol (Has to be refined to +7, have decent enchantments, and interdimensional ability.) That's the wonderful thing about this class you can't really go wrong on weapons.
     
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  19. Imp Imp-resive

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    Having a LandRunnerâ„¢ as weapon is more important than any amount of stats
     
  20. Doodle

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    Toybox, does have the potential for highest dps, and that's the question that was being asked, and I just realized that the OP already did the math her/himself lol, rather or not it allows you to be lazier is subjective, I still spam every skill off cooldown and manually detonate everything for the damage boost. (Course I only have a 3pt toybox atm so it's alot easier, but when we get seconds this won't be a problem at all even with 6pt.)

    but again.. Toybox only has the highest dps in situations where they can fully stack against one mob (or a line of mobs) Arsonist has the advantage of dealing a bit over twice the dps in burst damage to grouped up rooms while only lacking something like 40% dps vs that fully stacked mob, so best is ultimately subjective... as I've already said... and @Imp, fair enough. I'm done here, my home planet needs me.
     

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