Berserker General Discussion

Discussion in 'Berserker' started by Poison, May 19, 2014.

  1. Caramellan The Absolute (Poorest)

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    So, perhaps I'm stupid, but I decided to roll with Caravella on the Epic pot for my lv75 Zerk. Unfortunately, the problem was getting it while I'm absolutely 100% poor and with very ghetto gear. I managed to get up to about 90 fire damage in town because I got lucky with beads and some accessories. Now, the questions I have are: Was this a huge mistake? I know I'm not even capped yet, but is getting the fire damage I need going to be a real fuckfest? And lastly, should I even really worry/spend money at this level, or will my damage only really come into question later? Thanks in advance.
     
  2. madchickins Flesh

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    You just gonna have to put together some Frankenstein epics with a source of smash like great glory bracelet, then get dusky west ring and a decent fire elemental magic stone. You goofed but if you can manage around 250-300 fire you'll be hitting way harder than if you went gracia with Danksleif.
     
  3. Jaðarsormr S> soul for Muramasa

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    The good thing is that Anton Fire Legendaries are MUCH cheaper now: Flame Offering Necklace, Flaming Veil Overmantle, Flaming Veil Overshoes and Dark Rubrium Coil will cost less than 10-20m these days (so you need like 70-80m for all those 4 items).
    First bad thing is that non-Anton Fire Legendaries are still kinda expensive (but again, not as it was before): Filir - Undying Fire and King's Road Keeper: Sacred Fire will cost like 60-100m (Sacred Fire is probably cheaper, so it's gonna be like 160-180m for those 2 items). There's also a Doppelganger of Fire Title, but it's kinda expensive these days (30-40m).
    Second bad thing is that Flame Drop Trousers and Submarine Volcano pieces are Epics, so you might get them soon... or not really soon (I still don't have a single SV Belt, and that's after maaaaaaany Hell Mode runs). Is it possible to get 250-300 Fire Damage without those Epics? Let's check:
    6 All Elemental Damage (from Frost Cave Dimensional Seal Quest clearance)
    7 All Elemental Damage (from Time Break Dimensional Seal Quest clearance)
    34 Fire Damage (Flame Katana - Caravella)
    22 Fire Damage (Dark Rubrium Coil)
    42 Fire Damage (Flame Offering Necklace)
    30 Fire Damage (Selist's Tear)
    ? Fire Damage (Flaming Veil Overmantle)
    ? Fire Damage (Flaming Veil Overshoes)
    10 Fire Damage (per Accessory enchant - from Christmas Elemental Bead [Fire])

    These are you cheapest options. Why did I post "?" near Flaming items? Because it depends on what amount of Legendaries or Epics you equipped. Let's say that you follow Flesh's advice and pick up Dusky West Ring and Great Glory Bracelet. Then I'd advice you to get Great Glory Armband, Dusky West Heavy Armor Top and Dusky West Heavy Armor Pants (OR you can buy another cheap Anton Legendary, which is Power Arm Chain Leggings, that will probably work better - it cost about 15-20m these days). This way, you'll have 9 Legendaries and 1 Epic, which means +21 Fire Damage from each Flaming item.

    Let's count the amount of Fire Damage, then:

    6 + 7 + 34 + 22 + 42 + 30 + 21 + 21 + 10 + 10 + 10 = 213 Fire Damage

    Unfortunately, you can't reach even 250 Fire Damage with the cheapest Fire Damage items. Because of that, you need to rely on more expensive Legendary Fire Damage items and Fire Damage accessory enchants, get lucky with Flame Drop Trousers or Submarine Volcano pieces (especially Belt) or have a good party member that will support you with additional Fire Damage (Vilmark set user / Wesley's set user / Absolute Field user / Flame Drop Trousers user / etc.)

    Still, this is the cheapest build (many Quest Legendaries, buyable Legendaries are very cheap) you can get, and I think it's very good for its price. Things would've been easier if you had more money, but not everyone can afford to buy stuff like Disease-spreading Hardened Heart, three Essence Hyper Mecha Tau cards, Filir - Undying Fire and others with ease (which I can understand).

    You should look for Fire Damage Aura in the future, as well as try to get Fire Damage Gem from Guild Dungeons. Even if not by a lot, but they'll help with reaching 250-300 Fire Damage.
     
  4. Caramellan The Absolute (Poorest)

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    Well that's not so bad I suppose. I had known that I would need some legs and epics from your fire setup on the gearing guide, but I figured I would have to get some bootleg gear-- at least until I can get some more money and "luck". I'm fine with scraping by with sub-optimal damage for a small amount of time as long as I can at least get my foot in the door with some items. Gotta start somewhere, right? Anyways, thanks for the info and advice you guys, VERY much appreciated! :)
     
  5. Shirouzen Ultracasual

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    The best 80 epic weapon to choose from would be dainslef right? Just making sure.
     
  6. Draq Bruiseus Maximus

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    yes, unless you have what, full submarine for caravella ?
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2016
  7. madchickins Flesh

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    When I use full submarine and byeolungum, my damage is about 2 percent higher overall than a mixed setup (flame drop, Submarine belt, night shadow, flame veil shoes and shoulder) with Caravella.
    When I use full submarine AND Caravella my damage is RNG based but roughly the same damage if I were to use byeol over the course of one skill rotation (basically a setup without smash). The Caravella is super legit after 250 fire damage (250 is kinda low you want to aim for 350 realistically...hence why the build is expensive). Pre patch I was able to hit a nugol time of 21 seconds with a mixed fire setup (roughly 430 fire damage) and Caravella. Since our Solo is weak this patch the same setup is 30 seconds at the moment. That's to give you an idea of how strong a mixed fire setting Caravella can be. Dainsleif being weaker than byeol by a good margin will eventually become less viable endgame than Caravella. Anyways check this post out for more details
    http://www.dfonexus.com/posts/302544/
    This is more of a further end game depth than gracia, but less than full epics. You'll have to decide how strong you want to really be. Caravella setup is suitable for 7-10 man raid sell. You can go less but that'll require infinite series.
    But foreal if you just started a zerk just get a Danksleif and be cheap. Fire era is coming to an end with gracia soon, so might as well not sink so much cash into it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2016
  8. Caramellan The Absolute (Poorest)

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    Wow, I feel really shitty about picking a Caravella over Dansleif from the box now. The potential of it is amazing but I really shot myself in the foot it seems.

    On the bright side, I would like to say it's one of the coolest looking weapons in the game. I love playing my anime world.....
     
  9. caravella is a good choice and so it's dainsleaf it depends on what you have basically.
    it's only gonna affect you if you have really really really low fire damage like 100ish + carevella.
    but since updates are coming at a faster pace now, prolly by the end on January we might get luke normals, and that will need a complete different set of gear.
    SAVE DC/DI IMO :P
     
  10. Shirouzen Ultracasual

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    Another noob question, would arges be decent on a gracia zerk or would dainslef still blow it out of the water even if you werent going to invest on crit enchants.

    Not lookin to full invest on this char, id just be gettin full gracia for him while casually hunting epics when hell and epic events come around.
     
  11. Jaðarsormr S> soul for Muramasa

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    Well...
    Dainsleif is A Tier.
    Arges is B Tier.
    Caravella is C+ Tier (plus means "got potential to be in higher Tier")

    The thing is, Tier =! Higher Damage.

    When you're talking about Tiers, you're thinking more about "in how many cases this Weapon will be useful and good compared to other Weapons?", not "Is this Weapon stronger than the other one?"
    Caravella is C Tier, because it's limited to Fire Damage build. But then it's C+ Tier, because the more Fire Damage you have, the stronger it becomes in its limited case. Any other setup won't have any use of Caravella.
    Arges is B Tier, because it got Elenore and Crit modifiers - 2 in 1. It got more cases of use than Caravella (Light Damage build, any Elemental Damage build by using Castellan enchant), but it's still worse than Dainsleif (even though their Damage outputs are really similar - I'll explain it in the last part of this post).
    Dainsleif is A Tier, because you can use it in large amount of cases, and it works by itself really good - you don't need to do much to reach maximum potential of it.

    So yeah, unless you don't know what to choose for now and you don't have any specific Legendaries / Epics to build your setup around, you'd better go with Dainsleif.

    Well, Caravella is still good - it was my first usable Epic Weapon on Zerk. And the difference between Gracia Weapon and Caravella was really noticeable, even before first Epic rework.
    ...although I did got lucky and got Masamune very soon after that. Still, Caravella is a good Weapon in case your party in Anton Raid will be going for Fire Orb against Tog.
    Short answer:
    If you can reach 100% Crit Rate with Arges + Gracia setting and you're not gonna use too many Elenore modifier items, then Arges will work better. If not, then Dainsleif will be better.

    Long answer:
    Okay, so we're comparing Arges (B Tier) and Dainsleif (A Tier).
    Let's use this post of Psycho K to refer as how Damage formula works.
    Because both Arges and Dainsleif have Critical Damage modifier, let's say that we have 100% Crit Rate.
    Before calculating Critical and Elenore Damage, let's say that our attack deals 100000 Damage.
    Now we're gonna check the damage of Arges and Dainsleif:
    Arges:
    100000 (Base Damage)
    100000 * 1.5 * (1 + 0.25) = 187500 (Critical Damage)
    187500 * 0.15 = 28125 (Elenore Damage)
    187500 + 28125 = 215625 (Overall Damage)

    Dainsleif:
    100000 (Base Damage)
    100000 * 1.5 * (1 + 0.4) = 210000 (Critical Damage)
    As you can see, with 100% Crit Rate, Arges is a bit better than Dainsleif (by about 2.7% Damage).
    But here comes the problem: that was the perfect condition for Arges and not the perfect condition for Dainsleif.
    Critical Damage modifier of Arges can work only in two cases:
    1) Having an item that inflicts Light Element on your Weapon (Gracia 3pc, Rigor of the Radiant, White Cube Fragment Contract)
    2) Enchanting Arges with "Inflict Light Damage" (the best way would be farming Castellan Bead from Guild Invasions - it cost 290 Purified Leaves there)
    Second option isn't that great, because then Dainsleif would be able to use Enchants like +12 Fire/Water Damage or +45 STR, which would outdamage Arges.
    Using White Cube Fragment contract is probably the best way to activate Critical Damage modifier of Arges.

    So what, Arges is still better, then? Well... There's a reason as why stacking too much Elenore Damage modifiers isn't that good compared to just Damage increase (with STR/Elemental Damage/Smash modifier/Critical modifier).

    Let's add Shape of Avarice (+9% Elenore Damage) to previous calculations:
    Arges:
    100000 (Base Damage)
    100000 * 1.5 * (1 + 0.25) = 187500 (Critical Damage)
    187500 * 0.15 = 28125 (Elenore Damage #1)
    187500 * 0.09 = 16875 (Elenore Damage #2)
    187500 + 28125 + 16875 = 232500 (Overall Damage)

    Dainsleif:
    100000 (Base Damage)
    100000 * 1.5 * (1 + 0.4) = 210000 (Critical Damage)
    210000 * 0.09 = 18900 (Elenore Damage)
    210000 + 18900 = 228900 (Overall Damage)
    You might not see the difference, but Arges is better than Dainsleif only by ~1.6% Damage now (compared to 2.7% Damage before).

    Now what if we replace Shape of Avarice with Infinite Shape of Avarice (+25% Elenore Damage)?
    Arges:
    100000 (Base Damage)
    100000 * 1.5 * (1 + 0.25) = 187500 (Critical Damage)
    187500 * 0.15 = 28125 (Elenore Damage #1)
    187500 * 0.25 = 46875 (Elenore Damage #2)
    187500 + 28125 + 46875 = 262500 (Overall Damage)

    Dainsleif:
    100000 (Base Damage)
    100000 * 1.5 * (1 + 0.4) = 210000 (Critical Damage)
    210000 * 0.25 = 52500 (Elenore Damage)
    210000 + 52500 = 262500 (Overall Damage)
    Oh look. They're even now.
    Almost every "perfect" setup have one Smash, one Critical and 1-2 Elenore modifier, so the closer Arges is to that "perfect" setup, the weaker it'll become compared to Dainsleif.
     
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  12. Shirouzen Ultracasual

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    Thanks for the math, I think I might get an arges for my full gracia setup and chase 90 epic weapons later down the line.
     
  13. Kudan7

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    Is raging hercules even good anymore?
     
  14. Shirouzen Ultracasual

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    Man i forgot about this weapon, 1400 str does sound nice...so many choices from the 80 box
     
  15. Kudan7

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    but is it that big of an difference compared to Dainself?
     
  16. Jaðarsormr S> soul for Muramasa

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    After Derange rework, Raging Hercules got a bit better (C~B Tier, closer to C Tier), but it still have the same problem: the more STR you have, the worse its damage becomes. This may happen because of three things:
    1) Having at least minimum amount of Amplification on your Equip (+7 STR);
    2) Having a decent swap set (at least Lv.25 Derange + 6pc Brutal Madman + Iron Gaiters);
    3) Having a Sader in your party.
    The moment you meet at least one of those conditions, Raging Hercules will lose against B Tier Weapons like Arges or +10 Giant Nugol Form (not even talking about A~S Tier Weapons).
    I mean, it's good for solo farming in stuff like Ancients or Anton Normals (where you don't have Sader most of the time or you don't swap as often as in Anton Raid), but in Anton Raid, where you'll either get a Sader in your party or you'll use your swap set, it really blows. So I guess it's usable in case you're just starting as a Zerk and you got Raging Hercules from Hell Mode... but you'll have to replace it sooner or later.

    EDIT: Also, forgot to say that it's actually +1300 STR, not +1400 STR (I will edit that after I'm done with rewriting the post about Zerk's Endgame Weapons) - not sure why the second effect doesn't work.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2016
  17. ryanroger

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    4
    what's the best type of weapon for Zerker ? I'm using katana for non-hitstop but I wonder if Zanbato can swing non-hitstop or not with bonus attack speed from clone and etc.
     
  18. weapon type doesn't matter for late game, (effects do)
    as in for lvling katana seems the best option.
     
  19. madchickins Flesh

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    Yes, for zanbato it is 160 attackspeed for that breakpoint
     
  20. since no one asked, i'll ask 1st
    1: what gems for a Nature Guardian or Spider queen setup would be best for insignia?
    2: also which infinite series accessories would benefit the most excluding 5 sense for now since it's gonna take 100K DI+ to get that.
    I would say neck?!? 25% elenore, because for ring almost every zerk has an ABR for +crit damage and byeoul for +damage.
    3: and after patch how does the magic stone +70 anton compare to other new stuff? wait or just go for it?
     

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