Angel of War - A beginners guide to Spitfires

Discussion in 'Spitfire' started by ArcLight, Apr 13, 2015.

  1. Phenir

    Posts:
    323
    http://wiki.dfo-world.com/view/Armor-piercing_Bullets

    The tooltip is missing an option so the values are misaligned. The second value in the current tooltip, the additional damage on building, is how much damage you are getting. The 20% is piercing strength. You actually gain 100% pierce strength if you are using AP + musket + max projectile mastery/booster bullets.
     
  2. ArcLight Hiatus

    Posts:
    2,957
    I never bothered looking into AP bullets because everyone kept saying "well, that +20% damage is the only thing that happens".

    I see... This actually makes AP bullets much more worthwhile then I thought it was.

    Sadly, using all those bullets... eh... I'll stick to Freezing for now.
     
  3. nihil679

    Posts:
    694
    According to a guildmate, if you have Ice Spark Bowgun, AP Bullets are the better way to go because of the Epic revamp allowing Ice Spark Bowgun to deal fire+water damage with +15% damage on fire/water attacks. For non-element bases, it ends up dealing +30% because both are applied, as opposed to only +15% on Freezing or Blazing.
    I can neither confirm nor deny until we get the epic revamp, but AP Bullets are still worthwhile even beyond being a Buff The Ranger Bullets.

    Edit: Also you mention Buster Shot is usable in the air after Nitro patch, but not Crossmore, which is definitely usable in the air as well. The skill also does decent damage and does a good enough job of mobbing if you're low on grenades.
     
  4. Hervey Administrator

    Posts:
    3,942
    Steam:
    baradaki
    15% isn't going to make up for AP bullets being literally your only physical attack (read: low strength, low physical crit). Also bowguns have lower physical piercing. That's just all around a bad idea.

    Every Spitfire skill can be used in the air except Neil. I was thinking about picking up Crossmore once we get jetpacks, but I'm not sure I could make it fit with SP costs.
     
  5. nihil679

    Posts:
    694
    I'm not going to argue whether or not it's a bad idea without having the epic revamp in DFOG and trying it out for myself, but it's still not absolute trash and just a Buff The Ranger Bullet as written in the guide. I also don't see how bowguns having low piercing strength would diminish the value of AP Bullets.

    Yes, I realize every Spitfire skill is usable in the air, I read notes too. I'm saying the guide seems to criticize the uses of Crossmore while saying Buster Shot is good for some of the same things Crossmore also gets.
     
  6. Hervey Administrator

    Posts:
    3,942
    Steam:
    baradaki
    I'm really doubtful of that. If it's weaker than other bullets, then why would you use it? And I seriously doubt a physical skill with a 15% modifier would out damage your magic bullets which also benefit from all your extra magic crit and magic attack / int. Not to mention most notable enemies can't even be frozen to begin with.
    Because if you have less strength than magic attack, they are going to be weaker.

    I was just saying.
     
  7. nihil679

    Posts:
    694
    Because I'm critiquing a guide that says Silver Bullets are worth maxing when they're outright inferior to AP Bullets even for a maximum magic-invested FSpitfire.
    Revamped Ice Spark doesn't need freezing to get +15% damage on fire/water attacks.

    I was just saying.
     
  8. Hervey Administrator

    Posts:
    3,942
    Steam:
    baradaki
    Well you didn't specify that and I wasn't aware of that. You just said "AP Bullets are the better way to go because of the Epic revamp..."
    And the comment above yours had to do with Freezing Bullet. So I thought you were replying to that.

    I didn't get an attitude with you so I don't know why you're taking one with me.
     
  9. nihil679

    Posts:
    694
    No, I definitely specified. I'm saying AP Bullets aren't useless pieces of shit that everyone seems to circlejerk about.

    Because my feeling is that you're diminishing my intelligence as if I'm some bumbling idiot, saying shit like
    as if I don't know this shit already. "I was just saying" without any follow-up on what you're actually saying is always attitude. Saying for what?
     
  10. 15th

    Posts:
    1,786
  11. Hervey Administrator

    Posts:
    3,942
    Steam:
    baradaki
    I was talking about this.
    So now I'm confused as to whether you're saying AP is better than Silver, or better than all the rest. Because I still have to disagree if you mean it would be better than Blazing or Freezing. I could see it being better than Silver though.


    It's just a statement. I was just giving information.

    I genuinely don't understand how that statement comes with attitude. I was just throwing it out there, for anyone who may not know, that it can be used with any Spitfire skill. I'm sorry it came out that way but that's not how I meant it at all.
     
  12. nihil679

    Posts:
    694
    I'm saying anything is better than Silver Bullets, and that AP Bullets MAY OR MAY NOT be worth investing in AFTER Ice Spark Bowgun receives an Epic revamp that causes it to inflict both of its damage bonuses on non-elemental (i.e. AP Bullets) attacks, AS OPPOSED TO only receiving one damage bonus on Blazing or Freezing Bullet. This damage bonus is COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO WHATEVER DAMAGE BONUS ICE SPARK BOWGUN CURRENTLY HAS ON DFOG. It's not the burning/frozen damage bonus, it's a flat +15% damage on fire/water attacks.
    I can neither confirm nor deny how it works until we actually get the actual change in DFOG because I don't have the luxury of playing multiple servers with geared characters to test, but I'm not going to discount a full +15% damage.

    I am saying this in contrast to so many other people saying shit like "FSpitfires shouldn't take AP Bullets unless they just want to Buff The Ranger."
    While we're still here, I also want to mention ammo count for AP Bullets being a reason to not get it is a load of bull as well. Cartridge Expansion TP gives AP +6/level vs. all other bullets +5/level, meaning +30 over +25 bullets. A 7 bullet magazine difference isn't going to murder your damage output when you're only shooting after you ran out of grenades anyways, the same reason the argument that the amount of Silver Bullets has for damage output is a load of bull as well.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  13. ArcLight Hiatus

    Posts:
    2,957
    Some things, I've never honestly used. Never liked them, including Crossmore. When I heard about the revamp, I just heard what other people said and put it onto the guide. That's how I did guides in Elsword, Dragon Nest and GunZ and it worked out very well.

    I realize now that I have written very erroneous statements from those sources. And I will fix them. Honestly, finding the AP bullets are far from rumors is the final straw. I apologize for the inaccuracies (due to laziness on me also for looking at /r/DFO or asking people instead of consorting gameplay for skills I never really used, it's honestly laziness when all it took was going to the training room) Guess I'll have to consort with KDnF and CDnF (Locales make me have difficulties playing).

    Please tell me what other things I have gotten wrong, I need to update the following:

    1. Neil
    2. Armor Piercing Bullets
    3. Crossfire
    4. Cartridge Expansion (because I remember three people telling me it's removed instead of moved to Grenade Mastery, which convinced me)
    5. ???

    And these changes will come ASAP. It's my policy to not leave inaccuracies in guides due to how easy it could be to give false information.

    Besides that.... :


    Well, the total output of damage of Silver Bullets actually outdid Freezing and Blazing. Nobody put AP bullets into the equation, hence why you didn't see FSpits talk about it.

    Also, I did mention (hopefully, edit: nope RIP) that you should take one bullet only, and that Silver is either "max or zero". To be honest, I should reword that, since Photon Bomb and EMP Shock is much better shock sources then Silver will ever be.

    The reason why FSpits never took AP bullets was because of that horrible description that is everyone's assumptions.

    My only argument is that the fault of Silver actually extends to AP, using all those bullets is going to take a long time.

    And I really only maxed Freezing only for a pretty decent CC.

    Also, if I have Silver Bullet (Epic Revolver), can I use bullets with that? My friend would like to know. Silver Bullet + Armor Piercing on MRanger sounds crazy.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2015
  14. nihil679

    Posts:
    694
    All the possible Silver Bullet buffs/specs in the world will probably still not make it worth a Spitfire's while when you have 3 far superior options to choose from.
    Damage per reload should not be the test for a bullet's damage output when:
    1. Between other actives and grenades, you will most likely reload a half-empty magazine more than you actually expend every bullet.
    2. Once 2nd awakening drops, Quartermaster gives you a bottomless magazine. The downtime between reloading a magazine and Quartermaster essentially gives you INFINITE bullets of your choice.
    When you consider the fact you have literally unlimited resources for a damage skill, the general go-to would be whatever does the most damage over time, NOT damage per reload. It also makes no sense to base a bullet's viability around its value per reload.

    I don't know why you're talking about Silver Bullet + AP Bullets when you can't stack the buffs, even if given away. AP Bullets will overwrite Silver Bullets the buff.
    MRangers with fully specced Silver Bullets might be superior to a non-invested shared AP Bullet because of Cartridge Supply penalty.

    Buster Shot being useful only with Freezing or Blazing Bullets is absolutely not true as well, and if anything, Freezing OR AP Bullets work better with Buster Shot on the reason that the 2 only Buster Shot-supporting Chrons, Extra Clip and Bullet Hell, feature Freezing Bullet and AP Bullet options respectively. Blazing Bullets are far better shot out normally compared to the burst damage granted with a Freezing/AP Buster Shot.
    But who cares, because post-2nd awakening gives you aerial Buster Shot and Quartermaster for unlimited ammo. It takes about as much time to fire a Buster Shot now and then as it will take to shoot a Rising Shot, meaning aside from the aerial recoil and repositioning after, it's free extra damage.

    A guide should be written if you actually play the class, but you act as if all you are doing is parroting what other people said and not doing much further research at all.
     
  15. Phenir

    Posts:
    323
    Excuse me if this is obvious but why is it bad if it takes a long time to use all the AP bullets. From my understanding, AP bullets + TP deal more damage per hit than freezing or blazing+ tp. All I see from this is less time replenishing bullets.

    I think max AP still does more damage than +5 silver bullet. Does Silver Bullet (gun) get changed after epic revamp? Otherwise I can't see a reason for ranger to complain about getting AP bullets while using it. Unless the AP bullets don't get the light damage for some reason.
     
  16. ArcLight Hiatus

    Posts:
    2,957
    Taking a long time to use the AP bullets either way means you're not doing all that damage as fast as Freezing or Blazing could do. By the time your freezing is out, that means you can lay down mines or have a C4 ready.

    Freezing takes half the time AP bullets takes to fire all their load. The question is the cooldown to bullet time gap. Bullets are, in my opinion, what you're suppose to use after Grenades are out. Despite the damage per shot is still optimal for AP, the freezing effect and the Magic Damage +% makes Freezing honestly much more optimal (Along with it, the Arsenal Reinforcement enhancement).

    Otherwise, I agree that the general consensus of Silver Bullet was wrong, and that I should have updated the board. To be honest, I'll admit that I believed Silver Bullets was "optimal" until I saw that all the ~65 bullets fired was 1 per shot, which isn't really that useful considering the potential of grenades.

    The Quarter Master is a buff, last time I checked. You can only have it for literally 5-6 seconds. How is that justification of "limitless ammunition" when the limitless ammunition lasts for 5-6 seconds? Also, do I need to remind you that the cooldown is literally 32 seconds? That's a cycle of 37-38 seconds, where you have only 5-6 seconds of unlimited ammo. I don't think that's close to even "unlimited ammunition". And most of the time, you'd want to use that for grenades, not bullets. (Especially Pressure Grenades, which are invaluable combined with Grenade Mastery)

    It's because of the reason behind the fact that I doubt myself even when I play the class that I did research via people at first.

    Even then, general people usually have some misconceptions, but most of the common knowledge is usually true.

    You can't really say I should make a guide solely based on my experience on the class without doing research and taking consensus of people.

    It was just unfortunate that I've gotten mal-information instead of valid ones. Parroting other people might be true, but if there was a lot of people saying the exact opposite of what you originally thought, it would put some doubt in your way of what you think.

    However, you are true about the lack of research. I apologize and will do extensive research next time.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2015
  17. nihil679

    Posts:
    694
    That doesn't even mean anything. Regardless of how fast you use ANY bullets, you are doing damage with it; it doesn't matter if you expend 1 bullet per shot or 9 bullets per shot, the fact of the matter is is that it is doing objective damage. The goal should be to compare how the damage lines up, which is in complete disregards to how much bullets you shoot. Does each shot do enough damage in an allotted time, or not? Not in an allotted clip.

    In the 8-10-12 seconds (or less) it takes for me to reload my grenades, I'm shooting. In that 8~12 seconds of time, which bullets do the most damage? Your attack speed is not a factor (and by that, the amount of shots you do is not a factor), your skills, stats, and gear should be made minimally different.
    Nowhere in this test is there anything about how what your reload downtime is, or about how many bullets in a clip there are, or how long it takes to expend a clip.
    In fact, it's possible to argue that more bullets in a clip or less bullet consumption per clip would actually be better in terms of damage because it is less time you are taking to reload or shooting blanks.

    Quarter Master provides you unlimited ammunition because by the time it expires, your bullets are off cooldown to reload. Between grenades, bullets, Photon Bomb, Mines, C4s, Pressure Grenade, and Quarter Master, there should NEVER be a moment that you are waiting on BOTH grenade and bullet reload and should always be able to deal damage between the fire-and-forget of Photon Bomb, Mines, and C4s. If your grenades are in reload, you should have bullets ALWAYS.

    Also I am not saying you should make a guide only on experience of the class and not on research or people's opinions. I'm saying it is as if your guide is missing all of them.
     
  18. ArcLight Hiatus

    Posts:
    2,957
    It's possible to argue that way, but the fact that each bullet also has an special type effect is something to not throw away either.

    Freezing is something you do not throw to the side. (Neither is AP's penetration rate) It interrupts enemy actions, which is an godsend in CC.

    Also, I played FSpit. I know the drill about Grenades and Bullets, but Quarter Master still has 32 seconds of cooldown. That is far from unlimited ammunition "forever". That is unlimited ammunition for 5-6 seconds in an 37-38 second cycle. It is only useful for bossing when you want to just downright kill an entire boss quickly with a low grenade supply. You should NEVER use Quarter Master for anything besides an part where you know the cooldown is downright a hindrance and need to use more grenades then you have.

    Do I have to also remind you that Quarter Master decreases the cooldown time of throwing grenades? There is NO reason you should be firing even a single bullet on Quarter Master. EVER.

    You also forget that there's one more G-12 Buster in ammunition compared to the rest of the grenades, making the cooldown cycle more chaotic. However, you got Photon Bombs, Flying C4 and Air-throwable Mines after Freyja patch that is plenty enough to go without having to even resort much to bullets. The only time you should resort the bullets is after getting an Photon Bomb out, or unloading an load at an boss who had an Storm, Photon Bomb and a Flashbang thrown at them. Why you are resorting to bullets in the first place out of anything when you run out of grenades instead of Cube skills is beyond me.

    You're saying I'm not showing experience when you don't seem to know the purpose of what Quarter Master's purpose is for (hell, it says "usable in the air", that already screams "grenades"). While blatantly putting the words "unlimited ammunition". Quarter Master is suppose to be like a short Elemental Festival for us with Grenades, not an Bullet extravaganza.

    Also, remember that this guide was created some time ago. It's also in my fault I listened to people during the start of DFOG, considering new opinions were coming and everything was changed. And again, I have admitted I was planning to revamp the guide.

    People's opinions were very wrong during the opening of DFOG, to the point new things were being found every day. Hell, again, there was that "Silver Bullet has better damage output total" that suddenly turned into an "Silver bullet is better then other bullets" bandwagon when it was completely false.

    It's had people's opinions, but I failed to update them to when people actually finally started discovering things on their own.

    Besides that, I'm done for today. I'm updating the guide probably this/next week. It's been a while since I've updated it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2015
  19. nihil679

    Posts:
    694
    Grenade spamming in Quarter Master is strong I will agree, but I think you're speaking out of your ass to say that you should never fire bullets for Quarter Master when there are multiple videos on YouTube of DnF FSpitfires using Quarter Master for bullet spam.

    The special effects only differentiate between whether you use Blazing Bullet or anything else. Do you want to keep frozen enemies frozen? Don't use Blazing Bullet. End.

    What does that even mean, a cooldown is a hindrance? Of course it's a hindrance. It's 8~12 seconds of you being worthless.
    Quarter Master is for killing bosses, obviously. Because why would anyone care about killing trash mobs as a FSpitfire, who has multiple AOE skills that can do the job. No one gives a shit about how fast you kill Lugarus, they care about how much DPS you do to a Nugol tree in an allotted time that translates to end-game boss situations like OV bosses or Anton raid bosses. 4-5 seconds of being unlimited means an extended 4-5 seconds of you actually doing something useful vs. something less useful while waiting for cooldowns. That 4-5 seconds is still counting down the time of Quarter Master's cooldown, meaning its cooldown is realistically closer to 27 seconds.
     
  20. 15th

    Posts:
    1,786
    anyone play fspit on kdnf here?
     

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)