Ancient Library vs. Elemental Burn

Discussion in 'Summoner' started by Redesignated, May 26, 2015.

  1. Redesignated Bwanga is my husbando

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    I've read people mainly suggesting Elemental Burn for Summoner, so I'm curious about how it compares to Ancient Library. I know summons only take into account your Intelligence (or other stats) at the time of summoning, and that Elemental Burn can give more Intelligence if you get all four elements up at once, but Ancient Library requires no added busywork beyond the initial cast and gives a big recovery to your mana, on top of lasting twice as long as Elemental Burn. Do any Summoners run Ancient Library, or is everyone all over Elemental Burn despite the tedium of getting the most bang for your buck that it presents?

    At the moment, I run Ancient Library since it's much easier to manage, and maintains its buff even for summons that I have to drop quickly. I've had no issues progressing up through Antwer Canyon so far, beyond occasionally getting gibbed by the hypermobile or mega-burst enemies (hi Outskirt's Arsonists and East's Shred, you're both butts and I want you to go away).
     
  2. Soltis [̲̅$̲̅(̲̅ ͡◥▶ ͜ʖ ͡◀◤)̲̅$̲̅]

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    INT/MATK are calculated actively for all summons ever since 70cap iirc, so it's fine if you boost INT after summoning them.
    The only thing it should affect at time of summoning is their HP.

    So far I liked AL for about 1-57 or so and then switched it out while adding in ele burn. Not 80 yet so hard to say if its reasonable to have them both in a build at max level or not.
     
  3. Redesignated Bwanga is my husbando

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    Huh, I thought they were still stat-on-cast. Interesting if that's no longer the case, though. Off-topic, but would you know if that's true for other subclasses with "summons," like Necromancer's Nicholas and zombies, or is it a unique quirk to Summoners?
    Also I will always dislike how summons's HPs aren't listed in the detailed descriptions.

    From an SP perspective, it would be really draining to max both of them. Elemental Burn takes more SP in general due to having prerequisite skills, but neither are cheap. (Remember that we don't have 2nd Awakening skills to invest in yet in Global.) From a pure damage perspective, however, it would be a huge boost to have both active at the same time, and depending on your playstyle, it could probably be pretty devastating.
     
  4. Soltis [̲̅$̲̅(̲̅ ͡◥▶ ͜ʖ ͡◀◤)̲̅$̲̅]

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    I'll double check when the game is up probably, but I would be really surprised if they changed it back to the old way.
     
  5. Pyros

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    I haven't felt the need for more int since my summoner bulldoze everything since like lvl 40 anyway, so I stick with AL, it's just much easier to use than having to use random spells every 30secs or whatever the timer is for Burn. I guess if I cared enough I'd get burn instead but I also have to make 3 binds for proc the spells and stuff it's just pretty annoying.

    As for wether or not int buffing works the same way for other classes, I know Chaos still snapshots int on summon(or well I was told so I haven't actually tested), and I would assume necro is the same, though it could be like summoner for nicholas(vallacre still snapshots on cast though, until the 2nd awakening changes).
     
  6. teru

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    Summons are definitely affected by current INT.

    I summoned 1x Ador in training, recorded the damage, then used Ancient Library and recorded the damage again. The numbers were higher after casting Ancient Library. I also did the same thing with Louise just to make sure it wasn't just spirits. You can test this out for yourself pretty easily if you don't believe me since I didn't take any screenshots of this.

    That's right, Chaos snapshots INT. Summoner it appears doesn't though.
     
  7. Angelan

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    Summons definitely do scale with current INT. Ancient Library is a good alternative to Elemental Burn for the ranks where Elemental Burn's INT isn't that great. In the end though, if you're looking to min/max, getting used to using Elemental Burn is a good thing as the INT bonus from EB ends up being over 2.5x Ancient Library's.

    To get both Elemental Burn and Ancient Library, you'd have to give up something else. I don't think it's worth it, especially if you're taking points out of a summon. Using Sandor, the most "replaceable" summon as an example, he still does more damage by himself than you would gain from dropping him to get both EB + AL for the rest of your pets.

    Thinking into the future, 2nd Awakening will probably force us to pick one or the other too.
     
  8. Shintaro

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    I have to admit, what keeps me away from the whole F-mages is literally the ele-burn, no its just freaking annoying. Its such a required spell for all F-mages. If you want to maximize your damage, you use this and thats it you can't even argue about the amount of INT it gives. Its just that good to spam it, yet so annoying that made me quit the class. There is no other class that has such a lame system to keep up their str/int buffs. I mean if the duration was atleast 120s, then I'd even think about it, but 30s? Just so annoying, yet so good. I guess its just for some kind of players.
     
  9. Soltis [̲̅$̲̅(̲̅ ͡◥▶ ͜ʖ ͡◀◤)̲̅$̲̅]

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    lol...
    spell 1 = z
    spell 2 = up+z
    spell 3 = down+z
    4th light can be covered by the main T1 you use, or 2 of the lights if youre using 2 of them atm.

    It's really not that hard for 600+ INT (570 for me atm at 68 with 15% boost from TP passive). Also you only spend about 30-35SP in prereqs for it now.
     
  10. Angelan

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    The duration actually gets lower the higher you rank it, down to16 seconds for 697 INT at rank 20.

    What Soltis suggested is almost identical to my setup. I generally only need to maintain it around once every other room, depending on the mobs, and how well I do with lasher/marking.
     
  11. Pyros

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    More like every room, at 16secs duration I don't really clear rooms in 8seconds even if it's pretty quick.

    There's no way to add a command for magic missile right? That's another annoyance of the spell over AL, you need a bunch more SP just to get prereqs(lantern and frost) and then if you don't want to hotkey magic missile cause lack of room, you need to get flora too.
     
  12. Soltis [̲̅$̲̅(̲̅ ͡◥▶ ͜ʖ ͡◀◤)̲̅$̲̅]

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    Just put 1 more summon on an easy command like
    up up z
    down down z
    left left z
    right right z
    up up space
    down down space
    left left space
    right right space
    up down z
    up down space

    Half of them you're only summoning every 200sec and the other half every 90sec. Like honestly it's really not that hard, especially when you consider the fact that the difference between AL and Ele Burn is more than all of the INT you get from mseal rolls put together (probably even twice or 2.5x as much).
     
  13. Pyros

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    It's not a matter of difficulty, it's a matter of convenience. Having to cast dummy spells every 15seconds is definitely not hard, that doesn't make it not annoying as shit. Swapping gear between every summon isn't hard either but no one wants to do it and carry like 10weapons for it. At most you'll swap in a legacy that buffs all summons by less. As for the power gained sure it's a lot, there is however the factor of how utterly pointless it is currently. Once we get OV or Ancients or something relevant sure, but the difference between 300 and 600int atm is like 10secs saved on Time Break if that.

    As for magic missile I don't feel like redoing my entire setup just so I can bind magic missile in a decent spot. I have some room for EB with space, left/right space, down space and then my main summon for the 4th element, so I'd like to use that, but I can't put magic missile on any of these so I have to get flora. Which isn't a big deal, just 15SP wasted. Why do they even have locked abilities anyway. What's the point of these? I had the same issue when I played Fighter stuff, there's like 3 locked abilities for whatever reason and it's annoying.
     
  14. Soltis [̲̅$̲̅(̲̅ ͡◥▶ ͜ʖ ͡◀◤)̲̅$̲̅]

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    It sounds like a lot more of a hassle than it actually is.
    I don't think there's much else to say though if you think an extra 300 INT is worthless at a time where that's like 1/5th of your total INT.

    @Redesignated I checked again with Sandor and Louise and they definitely change with INT post-summoning.
     
  15. burritoblob KingGodEmperor충무공GeneralTheMajestyDOFOMaster

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    Wow. You are literally playing the class with the lowest skillcap in the game. This is not an issue of difficulty or convenience. Go practice this even if you think leveling is easy by your standards. Wait... there isn't even anything to practice since Neople made a bunch of summoner skills light marks now.

    Deal with using burn the same way spits deal with swapping full chron sets, Chaser Press BMs swapping full items just to do damage in one set of dungeons, Necros triple swapping Ritual/Balla/MainSet to exist in the game, and like a bunch of other classes that have to swap full buff sets just to keep up.
     
  16. Redesignated Bwanga is my husbando

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    So Summoner is special in her real-time summon calculations (at least for now, I know CDnF and KDnF have that for a lot more subclasses), interesting. Thanks for letting me know!

    Elemental Burn definitely gives a lot more Intelligence, and its upkeep becomes less obnoxious later on thanks to the mark duration increase. It's another aspect of micromanaging, which can be difficult in hectic dungeons, especially if you're a more proactive Summoner. I'll try swapping out for Elemental Burn once I reach Mt. Hardt, see how it goes.

    Unrelated, but if a subclass has to do that much swapping to be passable (and trust me, I know they do), that seems like an issue with the subclass being balanced around a set of items, which is just kinda bad design in the first place. Elemental Burn makes a good character better; things like Necromancer full-swap unsummon/resummon/Awakening shenanigans are just plain old terrible.
     
  17. Soltis [̲̅$̲̅(̲̅ ͡◥▶ ͜ʖ ͡◀◤)̲̅$̲̅]

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    Yeah honestly if you can handle lasher as a summoner then you can definitely handle EB; It's pretty much the equivalent of lashering yourself (although even lashering takes up alot less times these days with the TP passive).
    I think eles do it before they enter a room usually, but for summoner I'd probably recommend doing it right after you enter and that will mostly cover you.
     
  18. GreenEggsAndHam

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    Honestly i've been playing summoner for the longest and i've cycled between Ancient Library and Elemental Burn, both tp included, but long story short I ended leaning more towards Ancient Library because usually if not all of the time I would rarely need elemental burn because im having no troubles on any dungeon atm that calls for that much int, plus the tp bonus from ancient library helps with mp to which was a deal breaker. Elemental Burn aint bad but its time consuming to get all the marks on it (seeing my cast speed is super slow right now, and i only use stalker)
     
  19. why not both?
     
  20. Pyros

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    Because way way not enough SP. Unlike some other classes where you basically can take everything relevant(like Necro where you mostly decide between 1 or 2 abilities that aren't maxed), Summoner already has to cut a bunch of stuff(Hodor, Freet, can only take 1 T1, can only take 2 T2s/T3s) to get all the important stuff. I don't know what you could cut for AL or EB after you have one already. Maybe mark if you don't value single target DPS as much. Maybe Enraged Sandor, not too sure what he does, damage is very crappy though compared to normal Sandor, description mentions debuffs and buffs but not sure if they work, would need to test.

    Anyway got Flora and gonna test EB out for a while I guess, might as well get used to it for actual challenging content anyway.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2015

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